Some facts re the list and previous finals

[meher baba]

Now that we have the official team for Saturday, and now that the thread on the Stephen Rielly article re the list has descended into the usual finger pointing and name calling, I thought I'd post some actual facts about the list we have had in the current and recent finals series. I will break the post up into bits for easier reading.

In each of the following lists, I have put in block capitals the players who still have a chance of playing for us in 2009 (that is, everyone other than Harvey, Gehrig and M Gardiner: albeit that I think Ferguson and L Fisher are already history, Max might still choose to retire, and I wonder about Baker and C Gardiner)

2004 PRELIMINARY FINAL AGAINST PORT


22 who actually played

BALL
DAL SANTO
GODDARD
HUDGHTON
MILNE
RIEWOLDT
BLAKE
HAYES
KOSCHITZKE
BAKER
MAGUIRE
Gehrig
Harvey
Black
Guerra
A Jones
Knobel
Penny
Peckett
Powell
Thommo
Voss

Would have been selected if fully fit

X CLARKE (perhaps)
Hamill

Also at the club but probably not considered for the final

S FISHER (still learning)
GRAM (still learning and possibly injured)
MONTAGNA (still learning)
R CLARKE (first season)
L FISHER (injured, as far as I can recall)
FERGUSON (not good enough)

[perfectionist]

And the point is?

[meher baba]

2005 PRELIMINARY FINAL AGAINST THE SWANS

22 who actually played

BALL
DAL SANTO
GODDARD
HUDGHTON
MILNE
RIEWOLDT
BLAKE
R CLARKE
HAYES
MONTAGNA
BAKER
MAGUIRE
FIORA
GWILT
Gehrig
Harvey
Ackland
Guerra
A Jones
Thommo
Voss
Powell


Would have played if not injured

S FISHER
KOSCHITZKE
X CLARKE
FERGUSON (was he injured against the Crows or was he dropped?)
Hamill
L Penny
Peckett (perhaps)

Also at the club but probably not considered for the final

GRAM (injured, I think)
L FISHER (out for season)
MCQUALTER (not good enough)

[meher baba]

And the point is?

I have got some points to make at the end, if you'll bear with me.

But I actually worked all this out for my own interest, and am posting it mainly in case anyone else is interested.

[joffaboy]

And the point is?

The point is that it is just another in the long line of anti Lyon bruised egotists still trying to deflect and smokescreen for their appalling behaviour toward the coach mid season.

They are trying to cling to the vain hope that somebody, anybody, will listen to their increasingly bizarre and hysterical excuses to why they were justified in slagging the current coach and demanding his sacking.

These people are WRONG, hopelessly and woefully WRONG, and they cant face up to that fact.

They really should move on.

Initially it was amusing, now it is getting a little sad, and slightly worrying

[meher baba]

2006 ELIMINATION FINAL AGAINST THE DEMONS

22 who actually played

BALL
DAL SANTO
GODDARD
HUDGHTON
MILNE
RIEWOLDT
R CLARKE (was injured and shouldn't have been selected)
KOSCHITZKE
MONTAGNA
S FISHER
GRAM
BAKER
RIX
X CLARKE
L FISHER
Gehrig
Harvey
Hamill (was injured and shouldn't have been selected)
Powell
Peckett
Thommo
Voss


Would have played if not injured

MAGUIRE
HAYES
GWILT (perhaps)

Also at the club but probably not considered for the final

BLAKE (dropped, I think)
GILBERT (1st year)
FIORA (dropped or injured, I can't recall which)
MCQUALTER (still not good enough)
FERGUSON (had returned to not being good enough)

[meher baba]

And the point is?

The point is that it is just another in the long line of anti Lyon bruised egotists still trying to deflect and smokescreen for their appalling behaviour toward the coach mid season.

They are trying to cling to the vain hope that somebody, anybody, will listen to their increasingly bizarre and hysterical excuses to why they were justified in slagging the current coach and demanding his sacking.

These people are WRONG, hopelessly and woefully WRONG, and they cant face up to that fact.

They really should move on.

Initially it was amusing, now it is getting a little sad, and slightly worrying

JB. You're wrong: I'm not really running any sort of an agenda. The Rielly article and some of the posts of recent days made me start to think about the teams we had put on the field in previous finals.

I appreciate that nobody will believe me, but I don't really have an agenda this time.

[meher baba]

2008 PF AGAINST HAWTHORN

22 selected

BALL
DAL SANTO
GODDARD
HUDGHTON
MILNE
RIEWOLDT
BLAKE
R CLARKE
HAYES
KOSCHITZKE
MONTAGNA
S FISHER
GRAM
GWILT
MCQUALTER
GILBERT
C JONES
EDDY
SCHNEIDER
ARMITAGE
KING
Harvey

Emergencies

BIRSS
FIORA
M Gardiner

Would have been selected if not injured

Dempster
X CLARKE (perhaps)
BAKER (perhaps)
MAGUIRE (if genuinely fit)

Others still at the club (at least until the end of the season)

C GARDINER
GEARY
L FISHER (probably gone)
RIX (??)
FERGUSON (probably gone)
ALLEN
HOWARD
MCEVOY
STEVEN
CONNORS
GEHRIG (retired)

[meher baba]

ANALYSIS

The core of the team has been evolving slowly. 14 of the guys selected for Saturday were already at the club in 2004 (of whom 10 played in the PF that year), 16 were at the club in 2005 (of whom 12 played in the PF, along with Fiora, who has been selected as an emergency for Saturday) and 17 were at the club in 2006 (of whom 11 played in the EF, as would have Hayes and perhaps Gwilt if they had been fit).

If we take our last appearance in a PF in 2005 as a benchmark, we have only 6 players in our team for Saturday who weren't already at the club in 2005: two premiership winners in King and Schneider, two draftees in Gilbert and Armo, and two elevated rookies in C Jones and Eddy.

If we had all of our players fully fit, it is conceivable that Eddy and Armo at least would make way for Baker and X Clarke, as well as two out of Gwilt, Gilbert and Raph for Maguire and Dempster: which would mean that up to 18 players out of the 22 would have been at the club in 2005.

In other words, it's still fundamentally the same list - at least in its upper strata - as we had in 2005.

The GT-haters on here can rant and rail against that fact all they like, but it's a fact nonetheless.

Some other interesting observations, some of which I hadn't really picked up on until now.

- Hamill and X Clarke made virtually no contributions in the finals we lost (missing two of them with injury, and both playing injured in the other)

- We really were up against it in 2005 with so many players out

- How Ferguson has managed to remain at the club for so long when he was only considered seriously for the team in the finals in one season (and that being the one in which we had the most injuries) is something to marvel at

I don't see why any of this has to be seen as a pro-GT/anti-Lyon position.

Lyon's achievement has been not to rebuild the list he took over, but to tweak it to make it a bit better.

If he can take it to the GF, with 3-4 senior players out with injury, he will have done better than GT.

Good on him, and good on anyone who has stayed with me this far.

Cheers

MB

[meher baba]

And the point is?

The point is that it is just another in the long line of anti Lyon bruised egotists still trying to deflect and smokescreen for their appalling behaviour toward the coach mid season.

They are trying to cling to the vain hope that somebody, anybody, will listen to their increasingly bizarre and hysterical excuses to why they were justified in slagging the current coach and demanding his sacking.

These people are WRONG, hopelessly and woefully WRONG, and they cant face up to that fact.

They really should move on.

Initially it was amusing, now it is getting a little sad, and slightly worrying

By the way, JB, I am - and have been - able completely to face up to the fact that I was wrong about Lyon's coaching.

I was wrong to call for his dismissal.
I was wrong to lampoon him.
I was wrong to suggest that we would have been better off sticking with GT (I now think that Lyon is looking like a better bet)

He's proved me and many others wrong and good on him.

What I wasn't wrong about was

Sacking a coach after three successive finals series was a huge risk (and, I suspect, one that was taken for reasons not entirely connected with football)

and

The list we had in 2006 was a top 4 list that was decimated by injuries, as it was again in 2007.

In 2008, our injury situation was much better, plus Lyon astutely recruited some talented rejects from other clubs to fill the holes left by Hamill, Thommo, (as it turned out) Gehrig, etc, and - surprise, surprise - we have made the top 4 again.

If I can admit I was wrong about Lyon, why can't you and others admit you were wrong about the list?

That's it from me on the topic of the list, over and out.

[Enrico_Misso]

I'm waiting for your analysis of the 97 list.

Only Max and 35 left.

[saintjake]

has goose maguire ever played a final
in full fitness?

[Mr Magic]

has goose maguire ever played a final
in full fitness?

HE started one in the 2005 PF.
He was fully fit for about 15-20 minutes!

[WayneJudson42]

GWILT
MCQUALTER
GILBERT
C JONES
EDDY
SCHNEIDER
ARMITAGE
KING


all weren't playing in 2006. That's 8 or 9 if you count Dempster.

Last time I used a calculator... 9 = 50% of 18.

Dude, you either need a hobby... or therapy.

[plugger66]

GWILT
MCQUALTER
GILBERT
C JONES
EDDY
SCHNEIDER
ARMITAGE
KING


all weren't playing in 2006. That's 8 or 9 if you count Dempster.

Last time I used a calculator... 9 = 50% of 18.

Dude, you either need a hobby... or therapy.

Amazing what figures can do. It is 8 as Dempster isnt playing and there is 22 in a side so it is 35%.

[emmdee]

meher baba, interesting read. This is why I log onto this forum cos people do lots of research & present some good facts & opinions. I get tired of forumites bickering over differences of opinion that become online arguments. Keep up the good work meher baba, by the way I dont always agree with your comments but usually they are presented well.

[WayneJudson42]

GWILT
MCQUALTER
GILBERT
C JONES
EDDY
SCHNEIDER
ARMITAGE
KING


all weren't playing in 2006. That's 8 or 9 if you count Dempster.

Last time I used a calculator... 9 = 50% of 18.

Dude, you either need a hobby... or therapy.

Amazing what figures can do. It is 8 as Dempster isnt playing and there is 22 in a side so it is 35%.

ok, 35%... still not the same list.

[SaintWal]

MB you have read my mind. Was thinking exactly the same today about comparing the lists from 2004 to today

I too was a doubter about Lyon, not at the start, I thought he was a good appointment. I Never doubted him on a tactical front but only on a motivational front. I always saw this as GT's one real strength. Clearly list management and business deals weren't but maybe there were things going on in the background that will never be known.

IMO I think the list is actually evolving and the best part about this is the internal pressure to keep your place in the side. The weak will be culled, something St.Kilda has rarely done, and what is left will be a core of strong players with successive generations of younger players following.

Instead of looking at what players are retiring we start to look at the careers of the ones that are starting. The modern era of football list management has finally dawned at the club. Halleluja!

[WayneJudson42]

MB you have read my mind. Was thinking exactly the same today about comparing the lists from 2004 to today

I too was a doubter about Lyon, not at the start, I thought he was a good appointment. I Never doubted him on a tactical front but only on a motivational front. I always saw this as GT's one real strength. Clearly list management and business deals weren't but maybe there were things going on in the background that will never be known.

IMO I think the list is actually evolving and the best part about this is the internal pressure to keep your place in the side. The weak will be culled, something St.Kilda has rarely done, and what is left will be a core of strong players with successive generations of younger players following.

Instead of looking at what players are retiring we start to look at the careers of the ones that are starting. The modern era of football list management has finally dawned at the club. Halleluja!

Yes, my point exactly...

Players are now competing for a spot because:

(A) There is greater depth due to shrewd recruiting under RL.

(B) There are more players available due to far superior fitness management under the shrewd guidance of RL.

None of this would have happened under GT. Players like Thommo, Powell, Peckett were kept in the team far too long coz we didn't have choice coz we didn't have rookies, and all our gun 1st round picks were a disaster thanks to GT.

I also blame GT for the rising fuel costs, inflation rate, and 10 interest rates rises since he became coach... and the fact that I'm bald.

[WayneJudson42]

What I wasn't wrong about was

Sacking a coach after three successive finals series was a huge risk (and, I suspect, one that was taken for reasons not entirely connected with football)

To parody the great Paul Keating...

It was the sacking that we had to have.

[SaintWal]

We will never know what really happened. As i Suggest who really knows what the true pressures that were brought to bear on GT. All i know is that that time is gone, we have moved on (or should have by now) and life seems pretty good. The one thing I truly like about this moment in time is that even if the Saints lose on the weekend I truly think they will be better next year.

[WayneJudson42]

We will never know what really happened. As i Suggest who really knows what the true pressures that were brought to bear on GT. All i know is that that time is gone, we have moved on (or should have by now) and life seems pretty good. The one thing I truly like about this moment in time is that even if the Saints lose on the weekend I truly think they will be better next year.

I was hoping to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons.. but you didn't bite No doubt others will.

Anyway, I agree. 2009 is looking promising, come what may.

[SaintWal]

We will never know what really happened. As i Suggest who really knows what the true pressures that were brought to bear on GT. All i know is that that time is gone, we have moved on (or should have by now) and life seems pretty good. The one thing I truly like about this moment in time is that even if the Saints lose on the weekend I truly think they will be better next year.

I was hoping to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons.. but you didn't bite No doubt others will.

Anyway, I agree. 2009 is looking promising, come what may.

I have nothing against bald people

[meher baba]

What I wasn't wrong about was

Sacking a coach after three successive finals series was a huge risk (and, I suspect, one that was taken for reasons not entirely connected with football)

To parody the great Paul Keating...

It was the sacking that we had to have.

With the full benefit of hindsight, I'm prepared to agree with you (and PJK as well for that matter).

[To the top]

Just to bring a thought, which will provoke a response no doubt, but, in his first year Lyon recruited Michael Gardiner and Matthew Clarke, then in 2008 he recruited Steven King.

All genuine ruckmen.

Gardiner (until injured against Sydney and again in his 2 games at Casey since returning from a persistent hamstring problem) and King have been 2 very good pick ups.

Clarke contributed to his ability, as a 34 year old delaying his announced retirement.

Plus McEvoy has been recruited, and the importance of Gardiner and King to his development can not be understated.

I, for one, hope that Michael Gardiner continues in 2009 - noting he is named as 1st Emergency for Saturday and may still be well and truly in the mix.

Imagine the luxury of pushing King or M. Gardiner to the goal square for a few minutes every now and then and losing nothing in the ruck contests because the other is there.