Transition from Old to New

[One Eyed Saint]

There is no point in delaying the inevitable retirement of our older players by a few years if all that does is delay the rebuilding process.

This year is the 1st uncompromised draft in 2-3 years. We must take advantage to get the highest and best draft picks available and position the team for the long term

At the end of the year the following players should retire
* Blake
* Kosi
* Lenny
* Milne

We should also consider trading / delisting Ray, Jones at the end of this year. Ray has no penetration with his kicking and Jones disposal efficiency isnt even at VFL level.

At the end of next year the following players should retire
* Fisher
* Roo
* NDS

While these changes may seem too soon, there is no point delaying the long rebuilding process

Nest week I would love to see Hickey, Murdoch, White and Webster come into the side vs Sydney.

There would be much less frustration from the StKilda faithful seeing new blood come into the team than watching our older players lose the passion and intenstity and diminishing their reputations as their careers come to a close.

I look forward to SW and co making some brave decisions on list management this year....

[Con Gorozidis]

Im with you on this OES.
Quicker we get 10 or so new blokes to 50 games each the better.

[saintspremiers]

From what I saw today we simply have no choice it seems.

[gringo]

No we shouldn't do a melbourne- stick with the plan. If you don't like tonight imagine getting done like that by the bottom 3 teams.

[SuperDuper]

welll I think OES suggestions are very reasonbable.... the 4 he slates for retirement this year are almost certain to do so.... NDS roo and fiher may go one more year than suggested but that is it.... 3-4 more will be moved on... this is a reasonable plan I think and we have the new generation of leaders emerging, even if they are not as good as our last generation... seems a measured rebuild to m.. we certainly need some good draft picks the next 2 years

[Con Gorozidis]

No we shouldn't do a melbourne- stick with the plan. If you don't like tonight imagine getting done like that by the bottom 3 teams.

Screw Melbourne. They are a joke. You also need a culture of competitive intensity and reward for performance and a hard edge and a million zillion other things that they totally lack.
Look at Port, Hawks, Pies, Cats if you want to see a plan. Cats had 10 debutantes last year. And now look at em.

[Con Gorozidis]

Today was surely a day where stats tell you a massive lie.

Our top 4 ball winners were Jones Montagna Hayes and NDS.

Now ratings out of 10 - Id give:

Jones - 6 - good game. ran all day. but wasnt he meant to be on jobe??
Montagna - 5 - did well in the last once game was well over.
Hayes - 6 - battled hard all day and had a crack as usual.
NDS - 2 - absolute shocker when it counted.

I sometimes think the older guys share it around with each other a bit much. Even when they arent the best option. They also know each other games so well they know exactly when and where to run to receive from each other. This is why their stats often flatter them.

Not sure that this situation is serving us well as a developing team any more.

[desertsaint]

Unreal. Cast the trusted, the faithful, the loved, the leaders, aside. Uneffinbelievable.
I can not fathom the total lack of ethics on display. A total lack of empathy, of gratitude, of loyalty.
Cast it all aside in a chase for a quicker return and you cast away the fibre of the club.

For these players it is their livelihoods. They and their families rely on the club. They give the club their all. Their social lives also revolve around the club. And you would expect them to lose that simply because you think the sooner we hit rock bottom, the sooner we rise?

I don't want any of these players to retire or be shipped off. Not the guys that have stuck by the club and helped establish our current culture of competitiveness. Certainly not while they remain role models and remain good enough to earn their spots!
When it happens I hope it happens on their terms. they deserve this and I believe they ought to be trusted by us to know.
Up until now all they have done has been for the good of the club. Why would you think differently now?
Compare Melbourne and compare Geelong. Which culture would you prefer we emulate?

Fortius Quo Fidelius

[noob]

I don't think we have any players worth trading.. We're not going to get the high draft picks anyway.

[Con Gorozidis]

Up until now all they have done has been for the good of the club. Why would you think differently now?
Compare Melbourne and compare Geelong. Which culture would you prefer we emulate?

Fortius Quo Fidelius

So you are against short term gains but want too keep old guys on as a long term strategy? How does that work? Your logic is topsy turvy.

Geelong - you mean the guys who gracefully retired off Lingy, Harley, Mooney and Ottens after 2 or 3 flags? Thats two captains they let go. Noone is saying cast them aside or lack of respect. Geelong did it well with those guys and they went at the right time.

These guys are Saints champs and deserve respect.

The culture is about how you say goodbye to your stars - but the reality of the universe is that just like we all die - EVERYONES career comes to the end. Ended for Tony Lockett, James Hird, Leigh Matthews. It happens. So lets do it with dignity and respect. Thats the culture I want.

Melbourne have a sick culture for many many reasons. Lets not compare ourselves to them ever please.

[Con Gorozidis]

I don't think we have any players worth trading.. We're not going to get the high draft picks anyway.

We will have a high draft pick. Thats a certainty this year.

[desertsaint]

Up until now all they have done has been for the good of the club. Why would you think differently now?
Compare Melbourne and compare Geelong. Which culture would you prefer we emulate?

Fortius Quo Fidelius

So you are against short term gains but want too keep old guys on as a long term strategy? How does that work? Your logic is topsy turvy.

Geelong - you mean the guys who gracefully retired off Lingy, Harley, Mooney and Ottens after 2 or 3 flags? Thats two captains they let go. Noone is saying cast them aside or lack of respect. Geelong did it well with those guys and they went at the right time.

These guys are Saints champs and deserve respect.

The culture is about how you say goodbye to your stars - but the reality of the universe is that just like we all die - EVERYONES career comes to the end. Ended for Tony Lockett, James Hird, Leigh Matthews. It happens. So lets do it with dignity and respect. Thats the culture I want.

Melbourne have a sick culture for many many reasons. Lets not compare ourselves to them ever please.

I am saying trust the guys to know when and to do the right thing by the club. Lingy, Harley, Mooney, and Ottens were not forced out. That supporters would be talking of getting rid of such loyal players shows a real lack of graciousness. A sickness of the soul.

[SainterK]

I don't think we have any players worth trading.. We're not going to get the high draft picks anyway.

We will have a high draft pick. Thats a certainty this year.

Oh good, we can trade it

[Richter]

Agree on your retirements for this year. Next, lets wait and see. Schneider may be forced out early due to injury unfortunately. Dal and Chips hopefully have another 3 years in them. Rooey gets to decide when he packs it in. I like your ins except for White who is too raw at this stage. I'd like Dunell and Lee to get some games too.

[Richter]

Oh, and Milera to go at the end of the year too. Throw some $$ at an outside mid or half forward. Daisy Thomas would be perfect, though I don't expect him to shift from the pies.

[bigcarl]

Unreal. Cast the trusted, the faithful, the loved, the leaders, aside. Uneffinbelievable.
I can not fathom the total lack of ethics on display. A total lack of empathy, of gratitude, of loyalty.
Cast it all aside in a chase for a quicker return and you cast away the fibre of the club.

For these players it is their livelihoods. They and their families rely on the club. They give the club their all. Their social lives also revolve around the club. And you would expect them to lose that simply because you think the sooner we hit rock bottom, the sooner we rise?

I don't want any of these players to retire or be shipped off. Not the guys that have stuck by the club and helped establish our current culture of competitiveness. Certainly not while they remain role models and remain good enough to earn their spots!
When it happens I hope it happens on their terms. they deserve this and I believe they ought to be trusted by us to know.
Up until now all they have done has been for the good of the club. Why would you think differently now?
Compare Melbourne and compare Geelong. Which culture would you prefer we emulate?

Fortius Quo Fidelius

This

[Con Gorozidis]

Some players think they can play forever and the financial rewards mean they don't want to stop.

As for lingy Mooney ottens and Harley.
Id say they all had adult respectful mutual conversations about finishing up.
Kirk parted ways from the swans with mutual respect and dignity.
The club trusted the player AND the player trusted the club and coaches.

Mutual respect. That's a good culture.

You can't have players running the club. By way of example . Milney would play until he was 75 and still seriously believe he was just around the corner from a bag of goals.

[cwrcyn]

We're just going to hang tough and keep most of the players in the 28 to 31 age group. No point throwing out the baby with the bath water. We have to accept that we now have a lengthy transition ahead with a 3 to 4 year period of mediocrity, but we need as many old heads as possible to help the newer guys develop. Time to take our medicine, folks. Hold your nose.

[whiskers3614]

We're just going to hang tough and keep most of the players in the 28 to 31 age group. No point throwing out the baby with the bath water. We have to accept that we now have a lengthy transition ahead with a 3 to 4 year period of mediocrity, but we need as many old heads as possible to help the newer guys develop. Time to take our medicine, folks. Hold your nose.

I think you're too optimistic.
3or 4 years to get back to mediocrity more likely.
Pass mark this year and next beat most of Gc Gws Footscray Melbourne and Brisbane throw in one or 2 flukes against the rest of the comp and finish 12-15
Roberton and Stanley the positives so fae hopefully a couple more step up to give us hope.
As for trading our way to contention forget it. we have nothing in the right age group any other club would want.
Nothing like an extended lesson in humility.

At least in the real bad days we had Barker's marks, Muirs hits and Plugger's bags of goals to keep us going.
Very character building period coming up!

[lloyd21]

Think you are right Kosi Blake Milne Hayes Jones gone by the end this year we are in transition.

Jones has tried hard this year but they need to develop the kids.Hope club not be doing anything with Ray myself they need to spread experience thru list.Riewoldt Montagna Dempster Dal Santo Fisher to maintain experience going forward.They have use draft & preseason draft for midfielders offer $ to FA defender type over next 2 years.

[paddy]

While i get your point, I have to disagree with getting rid of our old boys just yet...

It is very handy having strong leadership and on-field mentoring in both AFL and VFL...

We need to view our aging stars as a mine of knowledge and experience, that we need to tap dry before they retire...

IMO anyway

[saintspremiers]

If Kosi Blake Milne and Lenny are retired at the end of the season as I hope they will be, we will still have plenty of oldies left.

That's 4 retirements and I'm assuming another 6 delistings of those not up to scratch giving a healthy turnover of 10 players - which is about right for our development phase.

[Con Gorozidis]

Those 4 simply have to go. Not even debatable.

Even after that it would still leave us with more veterans/experience/oldies than any other club...

Roo, Fisher, Dempster, Joey, NDS, Schneider, Jones

7 veterans is MORE than enough. Id add Jones to retirement list as well. 5 retirements and still leaving us with 6 veterans.

[skeptic]

It's a drifts and drags argument.

I think we all agree the the majority of our older players need to transition out in the next few seasons but it's bad to get rid of all your experience at once.

How I see it... Milne, Blake and Kosi... well there's no obvious room for them now... plenty of youngsters to take their spots
Hayes' lives and dies by his performance... provided the list is turning over... I'd keep him another season or two if his performance is up to it, he's a leader of the highest order. Riewoldt too

[Con Gorozidis]

It's a drifts and drags argument.

I think we all agree the the majority of our older players need to transition out in the next few seasons but it's bad to get rid of all your experience at once.

How I see it... Milne, Blake and Kosi... well there's no obvious room for them now... plenty of youngsters to take their spots
Hayes' lives and dies by his performance... provided the list is turning over... I'd keep him another season or two if his performance is up to it, he's a leader of the highest order. Riewoldt too

We can farewell 5 Saints veterans ( 2 of whom are legends) in 2013 and still have 7 mega experienced player/veterans in 2014. Still way more than any other club in the AFL!!

There is simply no chance/fear/possibility of getting rid of all our experience at once.

I know its sad to let go of 2009/10. I know we all wish we could go back and score a point or a goal. But we cant.
We need to move on. We all need counseling.