Caro's Arrow...

[BigMart]

Spot on IMO....

A massive c**k up, mismanagement we are still paying for, and Collingwood still reaping the benefits.

Watching Ball and Goddard hurts, every fan would have to agree with that.... And for some reason more than Everitt and Hall...

I wish I had the knowledge, time or care factor to bring up some of my posts on our recruitment period in 2009, in particular one post which stated that our decision to cut Ball would have player retention implications down the track.

[plugger66]

You seem to have enough time to tell us about your posts. Im sure you have time to find them to show us all how good your knowledge is. And another chance to pot. You really love knocking our club even years down the track. And are you actually saying letting Ball go caused other players to go in the future like BJ? tell me thats a joke.

[Johnny Member]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

[plugger66]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

Of course he is overated. Everyone in the media is wrong even the ones who know a lot more about the game than we will ever know. RL made mistakes but he wasnt or isnt overated by the people who understand the game.

[70s sainter]

Newman started the same thread yesterday.

[Spinner]

Spot on IMO....

A massive c**k up, mismanagement we are still paying for, and Collingwood still reaping the benefits.

Watching Ball and Goddard hurts, every fan would have to agree with that.... And for some reason more than Everitt and Hall...

I wish I had the knowledge, time or care factor to bring up some of my posts on our recruitment period in 2009, in particular one post which stated that our decision to cut Ball would have player retention implications down the track.

Wow look at this. BigMart was the only one upset with Ball walking.

But in hindsight players like Joel Selwood ended up happy. Dominated the 2011 GF on Ball. Maybe that's what Lyon was scared of.

[markp]

I said at the time we should've picked Judd... where's my medal?

[SaintPav]

I said at the time we should've picked Judd... where's my medal?

You would think we would have one at least one flag if he had played with us.

[markp]

I said at the time we should've picked Judd... where's my medal?

You would think we would have one at least one flag if he had played with us.

We would've won in 2004, but alas my magical hindsight mirror tells me that he would've caught Butterss having relations with his missus on the eve of another GF appearance in 2005 (which we would've otherwise won) and walked out of the club.

[SainterK]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

No it was the toe poke.

Well that's what people talk about...

[BigMart]

Yeah, sorry

Did not see the other thread?! Not sure why?! Blind....

This one can be deleted

[joffaboy]

I said at the time we should've picked Judd... where's my medal?

I said Hodge, can dig up the post if you like....oops was on the old forum, but rest assured I posted it.

Funny, in 2009 I was concentrating on a team winning 19 straight and playing in a Grand Final.

Doing the same in 2010. The future will take care of itself. If it means a down time so be it.

But I sure enjoyed those 2008-2010 years.

[saintsRrising]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

No it was the toe poke.

Well that's what people talk about...

The toe poke often gets mentioned as it was right at the end of the game...same as the "Milne Bounce' a year later....and no different to any other close game where the last umpring , or player, "mistake" is dredged up. But virtually always there will be other more cumulative reasons for the loss.

In that GF the Saints dominated the first half, but player after player missed dead easy goals.

One thing you need to do in AFL is to score the goals when you are dominating, as sooner or later your opponent will get to have a crack too.

The players blew it.

Lyon may not have been perfect on the day, but no one is. But all those easy goals going begging in the first half by player, after player, is why we lost. Game should have been over at half time.

[joffaboy]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

No it was the toe poke.

Well that's what people talk about...

The toe poke often gets mentioned as it was right at the end of the game...same as the "Milne Bounce' a year later....and no different to any other close game where the last umpring , or player, "mistake" is dredged up. But virtually always there will be other more cumulative reasons for the loss.

In that GF the Saints dominated the first half, but player after player missed dead easy goals.

One thing you need to do in AFL is to score the goals when you are dominating, as sooner or later your opponent will get to have a crack too.

The players blew it.

Lyon may not have been perfect on the day, but no one is. But all those easy goals going begging in the first half by player, after player, is why we lost. Game should have been over at half time.

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

[whiskers3614]

Ball sitting on the pine for the last quarter of the GF, plus Lyon telling the players to 'bomb it in long' in the last quarter were each in isolation, reasons we didn't win the 2009 flag.

Together they were both mind boggling chokes by an overrated coach.


Ball leaving is Lyon's fault. And that one thing cost us more dearly than anything in 2010 and without doubt handed Collingwood at least a 1 point advantage.

Of course he is overated. Everyone in the media is wrong even the ones who know a lot more about the game than we will ever know. RL made mistakes but he wasnt or isnt overated by the people who understand the game.

Just out of interest how do did those media experts who rate Lyon so highly rate Wallace and Eade during their "heyday"?

[SainterK]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.




Oh, and had Ross countered the Hayes tag and played Ball more than 49% game time, the second half probably would have played out a lot differently.

[BigMart]

He is not rated

Great coaches have achieved success....

I'll reel a few off

Malthouse, Sheedy, Pagan, Parkin, Clarkson, Roos, Longmire...... Get the picture

Wins a flag in 2013/14 he becomes great.... But ATM he is just a good coach

[plugger66]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.




Oh, and had Ross countered the Hayes tag and played Ball more than 49% game time, the second half probably would have played out a lot differently.

How come you only now realised all this once he left us. No one could say a bad word previously without sticking up for him. The thing i find funny is RL made all these areas and MT seems to have made none. Also waht about MM. Didnt the pies lead by over 4 goals and we got up and drew the game. it will bad coaching by MM not good coaching but RL where as its bad coaching by RL in the previous year. RL made mistakes in both GF but without ever atching the 2 games again my guess is so did the othe 2 coaches. They all do in every game of the year.

[plugger66]

He is not rated

Great coaches have achieved success....

I'll reel a few off

Malthouse, Sheedy, Pagan, Parkin, Clarkson, Roos, Longmire...... Get the picture

Wins a flag in 2013/14 he becomes great.... But ATM he is just a good coach

What do mean he isnt rated. he is probably rated the best of the current crop. Every coach is rated even Mark neeld was rated.

[cwrcyn]

Lyon is in his 7th year of coaching. He knows his stuff. He is a very good tactical coach. He should have just concentrated on that at St Kilda and the management of the list should have been totally out of his control. Failure by coach and club. Both have equal share of responsibility. If Thomas had remained as coach we would also have gotten very close to winning a flag, but I can guarantee you that our playing list would be in far better shape right now. Both Lyon and Thomas liked to run their own show, but Thomas had the correct philosophy on recruiting and list management.

I suspect Watters has a very similar philosophy to Thomas, and a vastly different philosophy to Lyon.

[Spinner]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.




Oh, and had Ross countered the Hayes tag and played Ball more than 49% game time, the second half probably would have played out a lot differently.

How come you only now realised all this once he left us. No one could say a bad word previously without sticking up for him. The thing i find funny is RL made all these areas and MT seems to have made none. Also waht about MM. Didnt the pies lead by over 4 goals and we got up and drew the game. it will bad coaching by MM not good coaching but RL where as its bad coaching by RL in the previous year. RL made mistakes in both GF but without ever atching the 2 games again my guess is so did the othe 2 coaches. They all do in every game of the year.

Spot on.

[SainterK]

I'm not saying he's a bad coach

I say all the time he is very good

I'm saying JB is harsh on the players, and the coach always shares some responsibility for the outcome surely?

There were more factors than the toe poke, and it annoys me we gloss over them and blame the players.

[markp]

7.7 to 7.1 at halftime. Blown then and there by the players not the coach.

I know you bring this stat up a lot....

Saints only had 3 more scoring shots than the cats 23 to 20.

Saints kicked 10 behinds...the cats kicked 8.

I just scratch my head how the players blew it.

The side that beat us was marginally better in front of goal, just by the barest of margins.

I think you are incredibly harsh.

Reverse the accuracy equation and we win.

We effectively lost both GF's by a kick.

You could go over each of those games and point to just about any event or stat to 'prove' just about any theory you care to.

It's brain damage territory.

[Johnny Member]

He is not rated

Great coaches have achieved success....

I'll reel a few off

Malthouse, Sheedy, Pagan, Parkin, Clarkson, Roos, Longmire...... Get the picture

Wins a flag in 2013/14 he becomes great.... But ATM he is just a good coach

I totally agree.


However I disagree that he isn't rated. He is rated as 'great' my plenty - and hence I think he is overrated. Overrated for the reasons you mentioned above.

[joffaboy]

I'm saying JB is harsh on the players, and the coach always shares some responsibility for the outcome surely?

Dont think I am harsh at all. Bad kicking is bad football.

If 7.7 is translated into 9.5 or 10.4 we are three or four goals up at halftime on a wet windy Grand Final day.

The outcome may well have been the same, nobody can tell.

And thats my whole point.

All this blaming of Lyon for doing this and not doing that etc.

All this specualtion of if Ball had played 5% more or if Goddard hadn't broken his collar bone or if Hawkins hadn't hit the post or Schneider run into an open goal and misse dor Milne grubbering the bal along the ground from 35 metres to not even score, or a whole host of other reasons, could have changed the game.

This constant critisism of just one part of Grand Finals s.hits me no end (not saying you are doing it SainterK BTW). People concentrate on one tiny aspect of a huge complex game played over 2 hours and make ridiculous definitive conclusions.

As P66 say we are down 4 goals at HT against a rampaging Collingwood who had taken all before them in 2010. So suddenly the moves Lyon made, Kosi into the ruck, Gilbert up forward, Goddard third man up, Ray onto Swan. None of that counts because, well you know Malthouse coached badly.

Facts are Lyon was and is a good coach, things didn't go our way in two extremely tight GF's. Thems the breaks.

As for Caro's comments. They are fair enough. Lyon left the list in a shabby state, but he was brought in as a finisher. For the ultimate prize, I, as a Saints supporter, was prepared for the high risk of recruiting for the immediate to win the flag.

It fell agonisingly short. Was the risk worth it? To me definately yes.

Am I comfortable living with the consequences of that failed risk?

Certainly. I am very comfortable. I dont moan about the past, or live in the missed opportunities. I dont moan about what has happened. What is done is done.

To continually complain about something that happened 4 and five seasons ago is a bit sad really. But it thats how people feel better about themselves and it allows them to sleep at night, so be it. Really not my concern.