The under 25's XXV - The future ins't so frightening...

[samoht]

My goodness. You deal in delusions and hypotheticals and a great hindsight jockey like a number of people on this site.

What a laugh - the Saints were mediocre in 2009 and 2010 you reckon

BTW you hero Watters steared us to the grand position of 9th, the first time out of the eight since 2007 with a team you reckon is "less mediocre" than Lyons.

lets see if he can even get us into the eight before trying to compare him to a coach that got us to within touching distance of two flags. It was too bad his champions in Riewoldt, Milne, Schneider et al couldn't kick straight in 09 GF, but I suppose that was Lyons fault as well.

Who said St Kilda was mediocre in 2009, 2010 ? - obviously our elite core group was at its peak at the right age bracket etc.. but all we needed was a quality player like a Burgoyne and a coach like a Malthouse and maybe Watters who could have got the best out of Ball and who knew the importance of resting key players - like Riewoldt - instead of having him limp into the finals. The Cats strategically rested their players - and got the result - smart move.
Dumb of RL not to realise the importance of strategically resting key players.

We are on a natural decline - our elite group is getting older, we lost Ball, and as it turns out we don't have a Burgoyne and Watters has to make the best with what he's got and been given and we were on a steep decline as you well know with RL anyway - we only had 12 wins in 2011.

[kosifantutti]

RL's short-sighted recruiting was never worth the Gamble - pun intended !

Are you actually telling us that Lyons gamble to win flags in 09 and 10 wasn't worth it?

Are you taking the piss???

.. and how was Lyon's gamble ever going to improve our chances of a flag ?...- with Ryan Gamble, Brett Peake, Dean Polo, Adam Patterson and the injury prone Charlie Gardner plus the iffy Lovett ? ..
whilst all he had to do was concentrate on recruiting a quality player like Burgoyne, who the Hawks had the sense to home in on.
The point is RL didn't need to take a gamble/Gamble (and indeed should not have) with all these recycled and iffy players when Burgoyne was available out there.
Maybe this was the reason why the powers that be at St Kilda were not too fussed about re-signing RL and why they were keen on Pelchen - who made the right decision with Burgoyne.
RL's Gamble did not work and he Ballsed it up in the end .. both puns intended.
If we had Watters and Pelchen at the helm .. we may have got that elusive flag - but we had to have RL, didn't we?

Gamble was taken at pick 90. Burgoyne was traded for pick 9. Hardly a fair comparison.

[samoht]

Instead of taking a machine gun approach, with a heap of recycled and iffy players - all we needed was to target one quality player like Burgoyne.

[plugger66]

My goodness. You deal in delusions and hypotheticals and a great hindsight jockey like a number of people on this site.

What a laugh - the Saints were mediocre in 2009 and 2010 you reckon

BTW you hero Watters steared us to the grand position of 9th, the first time out of the eight since 2007 with a team you reckon is "less mediocre" than Lyons.

lets see if he can even get us into the eight before trying to compare him to a coach that got us to within touching distance of two flags. It was too bad his champions in Riewoldt, Milne, Schneider et al couldn't kick straight in 09 GF, but I suppose that was Lyons fault as well.

Who said St Kilda was mediocre in 2009, 2010 ? - obviously our elite core group was at its peak at the right age bracket etc.. but all we needed was a quality player like a Burgoyne and a coach like a Malthouse and maybe Watters who could have got the best out of Ball and who knew the importance of resting key players - like Riewoldt - instead of having him limp into the finals. The Cats strategically rested their players - and got the result - smart move.
Dumb of RL not to realise the importance of strategically resting key players.

We are on a natural decline - our elite group is getting older, we lost Ball, and as it turns out we don't have a Burgoyne and Watters has to make the best with what he's got and been given and we were on a steep decline as you well know with RL anyway - we only had 12 wins in 2011.

We must have had the greatest players to ever play the game considering how poor others seem to be. How does a team when 19 in a row with poor players in the side. Either RL was a geart coach or the players who we see as poor did their role. A role I doubt any of us on here know about.

[samoht]

The Cats didn't win 19 in a row but they won the flag - because they realised the importance of strategically resting players.
The Cats ran all over the top of us in the second half whilst Riewoldt was limping in the goal square and our players were running up and down on the one spot.
Even on this forum people were surprised that our key players were not being rested.
There's no second prize - our players were in their prime and unfortunately RL didn't have the finesse to get the job done... and we were screaming out for a player like Burgoyne late in the GF - an equivalent to Varcoe.

[plugger66]

The Cats didn't win 19 in a row but they won the flag - because they realised the importance of strategically resting players.
The Cats ran all over the top of us in the second half whilst Riewoldt was limping in the goal square and our players were running up and down on the one spot.
Even on this forum people were surprised that our key players were not being rested.
There's no second prize - our players were in their prime and unfortunately RL didn't have the finesse to get the job done... and we were screaming out for a player like Burgoyne late in the GF - an equivalent to Varcoe.

Dont think Hawthorn rested too many the year before and I dont think many suggested resting players when we kept winning. I do remember a few cracking it when we rested players against Hawthorn. Remember that. We rested 7 I think.

How were we getting Burgoyne? As you think we should have got him tell us the trade that would have got him and tell us all the salary cap space we had. And before you mention Lovett show us a post from yours as soon as we got Lovett that said it was a stupid move.

I love hindsight.

[samoht]

A side that wins 19 in a row and chooses not to strategically rest a key player like Riewoldt, who suffers from chronic tendonitis of the knee - just before the finals - that's just plain dumb.
The Cats got it right... they strategically rested key players - not once or twice - but on a number of occasions throughout the year - they were after the main prize and their strategy paid off.

[SainterK]

As much as the method of Lyin's departure pissed me off, and as much as it sticks in my craw to agree with joffaboy, our players kicked us out of the 09 flag, simple. Any other version of events is delusional or drug induced.

We lacked composure...sure.

I do think back now and wonder about Ball on the bench.

To wonder why he was left so long on the pine with only a couple of stints on the ground in the remaining two quarters...49% TOG...even with the additional 'minutes' Ross admitted he shoudl of had it would of bumped him up to about 51%...with Lenny (our other engine room) copping a heavy tag and not able to impact the game in the middle...

Is that revisionist?

I'm not so sure.

I just flashback to the Rd 14 spectacular when Gardi marked, that insane moment....and get a little sad when I think about who kicked it to him. Ball may of had issues, but he had composure, he had the ability to stand up in big moments.

Also, if you're going to say our forwards kicked us out of the 09 granny, well you could easily argue that was part of the package. Not the most accurate set of goal kickers going around, and leading up to that game they had been known to spray their fair share...I mean Milney and Schneider kicked 47 behinds between then in 09.

Anyway, if they were so terrible...why did he play them again in the 2010 GF and the replay (Leon Davis didn't make the replay side in 2010)

I don't buy that you can lump it all on the players, if they are selected with their strengths and flaws, that has the coaches DNA all over it.

Oh and BTW...

2009 Emg: David Armitage, Jarryn Geary, James Gwilt

It's not even an argument to discuss if Steven should of made the 09 side

Gwilt especially oozed composure, should of been in.

I'm kind of tired of people being told what they can and can't think, what opinion they should have....especially those consistent with their concerns through that entire period.

[bobmurray]

As much as the method of Lyin's departure pissed me off, and as much as it sticks in my craw to agree with joffaboy, our players kicked us out of the 09 flag, simple. Any other version of events is delusional or drug induced.

What a load of old bollocks

[plugger66]

As much as the method of Lyin's departure pissed me off, and as much as it sticks in my craw to agree with joffaboy, our players kicked us out of the 09 flag, simple. Any other version of events is delusional or drug induced.

We lacked composure...sure.

I do think back now and wonder about Ball on the bench.

To wonder why he was left so long on the pine with only a couple of stints on the ground in the remaining two quarters...49% TOG...even with the additional 'minutes' Ross admitted he shoudl of had it would of bumped him up to about 51%...with Lenny (our other engine room) copping a heavy tag and not able to impact the game in the middle...

Is that revisionist?

I'm not so sure.

I just flashback to the Rd 14 spectacular when Gardi marked, that insane moment....and get a little sad when I think about who kicked it to him. Ball may of had issues, but he had composure, he had the ability to stand up in big moments.

Also, if you're going to say our forwards kicked us out of the 09 granny, well you could easily argue that was part of the package. Not the most accurate set of goal kickers going around, and leading up to that game they had been known to spray their fair share...I mean Milney and Schneider kicked 47 behinds between then in 09.

Anyway, if they were so terrible...why did he play them again in the 2010 GF and the replay (Leon Davis didn't make the replay side in 2010)

I don't buy that you can lump it all on the players, if they are selected with their strengths and flaws, that has the coaches DNA all over it.

Oh and BTW...

2009 Emg: David Armitage, Jarryn Geary, James Gwilt

It's not even an argument to discuss if Steven should of made the 09 side

Gwilt especially oozed composure, should of been in.

I'm kind of tired of people being told what they can and can't think, what opinion they should have....especially those consistent with their concerns through that entire period.

People can think what they like but unless you said all that at the time it is very easy hindsight posting that any person could do. I dont get the Jack ting either. In both years his body was stuffed come GF time. And obviously you said Gwilt should have been in the GF at the time. I actually remember having a pretty ordinary year. Who did you post he should have replaced at the time?

[bobmurray]

[

I actually remember having a pretty ordinary year

I remember you having a pretty ordinary year as well...

I'm looking for you to improve next year.....

[samoht]

The Cats were fresh, fit and strategically rested and Varcoe's, Chapman's and Ablett's run in the second half of the GF proved too much for us.
We needed runners and forward 50 marks - and of course we had Riewoldt who was limping up forward.
Poise/smoise -where was our run in the second half ? - there are two halves in football !

You make your own luck - and RL wasn't strategic or smart enough and the Cat's coach was.
Full Stop.

The Cats had a strategy to win the GF - we didn't. RL was out-generaled.

[kaos theory]

Without getting into the history wars, I think the main weakness we had for a long time was our whole management & approach to list development. We lacked a strong leader in that area, we lacked a clear strategy and the funds to operate it effectively. As a consequence we had head coaches with too much control in areas they shouldn't have; they need to stick to the knitting. Coaches tend to coach for the moment, thats all good, but there needs to be a balance, there needs to be a view to constantly regenerate the team, so that you are taking advantage of opportunities in front of you now, but critically, also creating opportunities for the future. And that's were we went wrong under RL (and GT for that matter...).


Ladder position gives you opportunities to improve your list, but is no guarantee. And to rely on bottoming out to re-build a list is a dangerous ploy and a mugs game. The demons with 5+ years down the bottom rungs are still getting nowhere and area a rabble, whereas the cats never bottomed out (yes they had father & son help) and collingwood only we down for a short period before bouncing back up for a flag...

We made moves to improve our situation that over the last few years, a quality training base is a good foundation, but critical is the whole management & development of the list area. Getting pelchan in place was key, plus the development academy, special coaches, etc are all taking us in the right direction. I never thought pelchan would create miracles, its all about getting the right people, structure & processes in place, and over time you will always be in a better position than without these things.

Hence, given from where we are starting out (ie since pelchan and the focus on list development/management improved) our list has improved significantly, from where it was heading.

[SainterK]

As much as the method of Lyin's departure pissed me off, and as much as it sticks in my craw to agree with joffaboy, our players kicked us out of the 09 flag, simple. Any other version of events is delusional or drug induced.

We lacked composure...sure.

I do think back now and wonder about Ball on the bench.

To wonder why he was left so long on the pine with only a couple of stints on the ground in the remaining two quarters...49% TOG...even with the additional 'minutes' Ross admitted he shoudl of had it would of bumped him up to about 51%...with Lenny (our other engine room) copping a heavy tag and not able to impact the game in the middle...

Is that revisionist?

I'm not so sure.

I just flashback to the Rd 14 spectacular when Gardi marked, that insane moment....and get a little sad when I think about who kicked it to him. Ball may of had issues, but he had composure, he had the ability to stand up in big moments.

Also, if you're going to say our forwards kicked us out of the 09 granny, well you could easily argue that was part of the package. Not the most accurate set of goal kickers going around, and leading up to that game they had been known to spray their fair share...I mean Milney and Schneider kicked 47 behinds between then in 09.

Anyway, if they were so terrible...why did he play them again in the 2010 GF and the replay (Leon Davis didn't make the replay side in 2010)

I don't buy that you can lump it all on the players, if they are selected with their strengths and flaws, that has the coaches DNA all over it.

Oh and BTW...

2009 Emg: David Armitage, Jarryn Geary, James Gwilt

It's not even an argument to discuss if Steven should of made the 09 side

Gwilt especially oozed composure, should of been in.

I'm kind of tired of people being told what they can and can't think, what opinion they should have....especially those consistent with their concerns through that entire period.

People can think what they like but unless you said all that at the time it is very easy hindsight posting that any person could do. I dont get the Jack ting either. In both years his body was stuffed come GF time. And obviously you said Gwilt should have been in the GF at the time. I actually remember having a pretty ordinary year. Who did you post he should have replaced at the time?

Glad to hear it, because they don't appear to be able to...some of the posters on here (I'm not talking about me) were consistent in their concerns.

I did say Gwilt should of been in the side at the time, for his composure, that I am confident of...in case you didn't realise...I'm kind of a fan.

I would of played Gwilt in place of Stephen King, we were too tall.

[plugger66]

We lacked composure...sure.

I do think back now and wonder about Ball on the bench.

To wonder why he was left so long on the pine with only a couple of stints on the ground in the remaining two quarters...49% TOG...even with the additional 'minutes' Ross admitted he shoudl of had it would of bumped him up to about 51%...with Lenny (our other engine room) copping a heavy tag and not able to impact the game in the middle...

Is that revisionist?

I'm not so sure.

I just flashback to the Rd 14 spectacular when Gardi marked, that insane moment....and get a little sad when I think about who kicked it to him. Ball may of had issues, but he had composure, he had the ability to stand up in big moments.

Also, if you're going to say our forwards kicked us out of the 09 granny, well you could easily argue that was part of the package. Not the most accurate set of goal kickers going around, and leading up to that game they had been known to spray their fair share...I mean Milney and Schneider kicked 47 behinds between then in 09.

Anyway, if they were so terrible...why did he play them again in the 2010 GF and the replay (Leon Davis didn't make the replay side in 2010)

I don't buy that you can lump it all on the players, if they are selected with their strengths and flaws, that has the coaches DNA all over it.

Oh and BTW...

2009 Emg: David Armitage, Jarryn Geary, James Gwilt

It's not even an argument to discuss if Steven should of made the 09 side

Gwilt especially oozed composure, should of been in.

I'm kind of tired of people being told what they can and can't think, what opinion they should have....especially those consistent with their concerns through that entire period.

People can think what they like but unless you said all that at the time it is very easy hindsight posting that any person could do. I dont get the Jack ting either. In both years his body was stuffed come GF time. And obviously you said Gwilt should have been in the GF at the time. I actually remember having a pretty ordinary year. Who did you post he should have replaced at the time?

Glad to hear it, because they don't appear to be able to...some of the posters on here (I'm not talking about me) were consistent in their concerns.

I did say Gwilt should of been in the side at the time, for his composure, that I am confident of...in case you didn't realise...I'm kind of a fan.

I would of played Gwilt in place of Stephen King, we were too tall.

Still have never read they cant. Just read about people who post in hindsight. Cant remember to many having a go at RL at all in 2009. Sounds a pretty easy thing to say in hindsight.

[Dis Believer]

HInsight is a wonderful thing and selections etc etc.

Fact. I stood next to my brother at quarter time at the 09 GF and said "if we are not careful we are going to kick ourselves out of this".

We lost by two kicks in a match that Geelong should have been out of by half time. That they were still in it was due to us missing any number of "gimme" goals. Simple.

Geelong did the same against Hawthorn and Hawthorn did the same against Sydney this year. You win GF's by taking your opportunities when they present. We did not do that.

[kaos theory]

HInsight is a wonderful thing and selections etc etc.

Fact. I stood next to my brother at quarter time at the 09 GF and said "if we are not careful we are going to kick ourselves out of this".

We lost by two kicks in a match that Geelong should have been out of by half time. That they were still in it was due to us missing any number of "gimme" goals. Simple.

Geelong did the same against Hawthorn and Hawthorn did the same against Sydney this year. You win GF's by taking your opportunities when they present. We did not do that.

No its more than that. As I said in my post above, its about giving yourself a chance as often as possible. Luck will always be there, sometimes its with you, sometimes its not. Point is that if you are in the finals more often than not, you can be there to ride that luck when it breaks your way. RL is a good coach, but that's not where the problem lied. The problem is having the coach control too much, and not having strong focus on list development/management. We need to be regenerating continually, I get the impression that RL doesn't do that well. His focus, like most coaches, was on the present, but at the expense of the future....
I think now, we have the balance better...

[Dave McNamara]

I also happen to think that we have some good (if raw) kids on board that will turn out to be good players. As fans (I won't use the term supporters to describe some on here) however we have been somewhat spoiled in recent times, in that we haven't had to wait for kids to mature. Well, now we have to wait. I also think that Pelchen happens to be an absolute gun in list management and I think his primary job is to minimise the turnaround time that we spend out of the eight. Watch the list he builds over the next two to three preseasons. I think we have a bright future.

I share your vision TB.

As much as the method of Lyin's departure pissed me off, and as much as it sticks in my craw to agree with joffaboy, our players kicked us out of the 09 flag, simple...

What a wonderful thread! Worth it for that post alone.

Accord in Northern Ireland, finally a century where France/England don't fight each other, Micky Milkshake coaching at Carlton... and now this. (I'm sure that your collective craws will be ok. )

Adversaries finding common ground... I like to see that.





Oh, and yes... I agree... regardless of the merits (or not) of any other factors, if we'd kicked straighter we would have won in 2009. Kumbaya.

[skeptic]

Yes because persevering with players that consistently produce a mediocre standard is mandatory and helpful to winning a flag.

And apparently you can't play a Jack Steven over an Andrew McQualter w/o it being labelled tanking

Lack of knowledge right there. Jack was injured. its that simple. You understand simple because if we had that many mediocre players how the hell did we make the GFR let alone get so close.[/quote]


First of all I'm not referring to the GF... all season in 2010

second of all, Inside the Bubble states categorically he was not injured at that time

Thirdly, both facts are beside the point. The argument is that RL persevered with a group of 4-6 players that consistently played $#% football.

You guys harp on and on about how he sacrificed the future to win a grandfinal at the time. How did playing an out of form Eddy, McQualter, Jones, Gram and Dempster contribute to us being stronger on the day. He could have still developed kids instead of carrying passengers in 2010.

Lack of knowledge right there. isn't it funny how your the first to fire insults ven though you're wrong. Remind me again how ignorant and bias i am by saying Hawthorn might not win the flag

[cwrcyn]

In 2009 Lyon had his 22 or 23 players, and didn't even have other players training with that main group leading into the finals. He refused to put games into a few of them, and then come grand final day couldn't bring himself to play Jack Steven ahead of Robert Eddy. Had he had the courage to make that decision, it could have been a different outcome.











.

[bobmurray]

Regardless of all this threads what if's for 2009 and 2010...we didn't win...we have only ONE flag to our name....still.....

and...we were mediocre when it counted....

OK......carry on twisting reality.

[plugger66]

Yes because persevering with players that consistently produce a mediocre standard is mandatory and helpful to winning a flag.

And apparently you can't play a Jack Steven over an Andrew McQualter w/o it being labelled tanking

Lack of knowledge right there. Jack was injured. its that simple. You understand simple because if we had that many mediocre players how the hell did we make the GFR let alone get so close.

First of all I'm not referring to the GF... all season in 2010

second of all, Inside the Bubble states categorically he was not injured at that time

Thirdly, both facts are beside the point. The argument is that RL persevered with a group of 4-6 players that consistently played $#% football.

You guys harp on and on about how he sacrificed the future to win a grandfinal at the time. How did playing an out of form Eddy, McQualter, Jones, Gram and Dempster contribute to us being stronger on the day. He could have still developed kids instead of carrying passengers in 2010.

Lack of knowledge right there. isn't it funny how your the first to fire insults ven though you're wrong. Remind me again how ignorant and bias i am by saying Hawthorn might not win the flag[/quote]


Have you ever discussed things that were written? Hawthorn won the flag. Hawthorn didnt rest players. Simple. Im pretty sure you understand simple. Jack was very sore. Fact. Wouldnt have been any value. Fact. You post in Hindsight. Fact. You have never been able to come up with one of your posts that you know say that what thought back then. Fact. All of these are facts. All your stuff is hindsight crap. Again fact or Im sure you would show me posts that were previously written by you. Fact. You are hilarious. Fact. You dont want to be hilarious. Fact.

[skeptic]

In 2009 Lyon had his 22 or 23 players, and didn't even have other players training with that main group leading into the finals. He refused to put games into a few of them, and then come grand final day couldn't bring himself to play Jack Steven ahead of Robert Eddy. Had he had the courage to make that decision, it could have been a different outcome.
.

Mmmm... my thoughts of RL's team selection are well known but IIRC Steven was nowhere near calculations in 09.

A few ppl queried Armitage's absince as he markedly improved towards the end of the season.

And I don't believe Eddy played in the 09 GF - he was replaced by Dempster who played as a forward yes? He had shown very little to that pint IMO.

Guys like McQualter, Jones, Gram weren't serial underperformers back then and earned their spots for 09. Just as Gwilt, Stanley etc weren't established seniors.

The criticism of RL (IMO) comes more from his continous selection of a few underperforming players.

In 09 both King and Gardiner had run out of steam over the last 2 months. Dempster and Eddy simply couldn't cement their spots. RL's perseverence with them all was frustrating but understandable to a degree. With regards to King and Gardiner he may have felt it was too late to change his structure.

I will still maintain that RL could have coached better on the day. RL may not have cost us the game but he COULD have coached better.



2010 on the other hand was completely different.

McQualter played 5 good games out of 25
Jones stopped playing elite football after the infamous Collingwood "Roo hamstring" game and was really rather average by the end
Dempster and Eddy weren't starting 22 players
Gram was injured and severely lacking match fitness late in the season... his late season push despite terrible games was mystifying
Gardiner was a spent force

These issues were prominent throughout the second half of the season and RL did little to address them.

Plugger calls this sacrificing tomorrow to win a premiership in the then. These guys seriously hindered us at the time and I reckon not developing more players a little earlier in the season really cost us.

[plugger66]

In 2009 Lyon had his 22 or 23 players, and didn't even have other players training with that main group leading into the finals. He refused to put games into a few of them, and then come grand final day couldn't bring himself to play Jack Steven ahead of Robert Eddy. Had he had the courage to make that decision, it could have been a different outcome.
.

Mmmm... my thoughts of RL's team selection are well known but IIRC Steven was nowhere near calculations in 09.

A few ppl queried Armitage's absince as he markedly improved towards the end of the season.

And I don't believe Eddy played in the 09 GF - he was replaced by Dempster who played as a forward yes? He had shown very little to that pint IMO.

Guys like McQualter, Jones, Gram weren't serial underperformers back then and earned their spots for 09. Just as Gwilt, Stanley etc weren't established seniors.

The criticism of RL (IMO) comes more from his continous selection of a few underperforming players.

In 09 both King and Gardiner had run out of steam over the last 2 months. Dempster and Eddy simply couldn't cement their spots. RL's perseverence with them all was frustrating but understandable to a degree. With regards to King and Gardiner he may have felt it was too late to change his structure.

I will still maintain that RL could have coached better on the day. RL may not have cost us the game but he COULD have coached better.



2010 on the other hand was completely different.

McQualter played 5 good games out of 25
Jones stopped playing elite football after the infamous Collingwood "Roo hamstring" game and was really rather average by the end
Dempster and Eddy weren't starting 22 players
Gram was injured and severely lacking match fitness late in the season... his late season push despite terrible games was mystifying
Gardiner was a spent force

These issues were prominent throughout the second half of the season and RL did little to address them.

Plugger calls this sacrificing tomorrow to win a premiership in the then. These guys seriously hindered us at the time and I reckon not developing more players a little earlier in the season really cost us.

Still hilarious and still dont want to be. Fact. Hindsight crap. This side made 2 GF's but had all these out of form players in the side. It must be f****** easy to make GF's and draw one and nearly win the other. Ha Ha.

[skeptic]

Have you ever discussed things that were written? Hawthorn won the flag. Hawthorn didnt rest players. Simple. Im pretty sure you understand simple. Jack was very sore. Fact. Wouldnt have been any value. Fact. You post in Hindsight. Fact. You have never been able to come up with one of your posts that you know say that what thought back then. Fact. All of these are facts. All your stuff is hindsight crap. Again fact or Im sure you would show me posts that were previously written by you. Fact. You are hilarious. Fact. You dont want to be hilarious. Fact.

Actually I have. Just ask St. Pav (not having a dig at you St. Pav but you may recall the post as we discussed it at length). It doesn't mean my opinion was right but it's there though you've claimed it isn't.

Once again your mistaken.

It's actually kind of pathetic now. Your changing the argument to suit your short comings.

At the start of the season you called me biased and ignorant because i said i didn't think Hawthorn would improve enough to win the flag this season. A course a flag they won 3 years ago is relevant to that point

And i've been critical of RL since mid 2010. FACT. It's all there. You're just embarrassing yourself.

You don't even have the humility to accept on a few occasions you've actually posted mistruths and just plain wrong comments. My god the ego you must. You think everything you post is gold.

The scarey part is if you actually believe yourself