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timtam wrote:They don't seem to have the same sort of mental fragility that they did under GT!
A week is definately a looooong time in football.
Teams will have the occasional slip (ala our performance against Geelong), however look at the comeback against the Pies? Look at the 'come from behind wins' we have had this year. This NEVER happened under GT. If they were down by 20-30 points it was GAME OVER! They did not have the mental toughness required to believe in themselves and to overcome it. Several of the players have already commented on the inability to achieve a 'come from behind win' in the media over the last month or so. Find it ironic how GT constantly refers to 'mental toughness' and that the game is '90% above the shoulders' especially considering he was not able to implement this in his time at St Kilda.
Don't get me wrong, GT was exactly what we needed when he was appointed the coach and he took them as far as he could. I will always be grateful for the first 3 years he was with us and what he achieved. However, he didn't have the skills/ability to take them one step further (whether RL does we will just have to wait and see).
GT stayed 12-18 months too long. They should never have extended his contract IMO.
Last edited by timtam on Thu 18 Sep 2008 11:35am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't argue with an idiot - people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
timtam wrote:
Well done RL, really excited with where our team is heading! They don't seem to have the same sort of mental fragility that they did under GT!
I agree.
However it's worth noting that they're all 2 years older now.
saintsRrising wrote:7/ Banger exited out already...
This is why you get called a liar. You live in Melbourne and so would have heard GT making that statement in it's full context. He said that he would look to 'exit harvey out rather than exit him in'. He would make sure that Harvey's decision was best for Harvey and the club.
[.[/b]
Saints 43 you have madea WRONG assumption and called mea liar for the wrong comment...and one that I did not refer to.
Yes I live in Melbourne and heard GT THIS YEAR bagging Harvey and stating that he "saw the signs" last year that Harvey was gone.
So if GT saw the signs LAST year...if he had still had been head coach Harvey would have not been playing this year. It is pretty obvious is it not....or was GT lying?????
So which is it Saints 43...did GT see the signs LAST year or not?
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
saintsRrising wrote:7/ Banger exited out already...
This is why you get called a liar. You live in Melbourne and so would have heard GT making that statement in it's full context. He said that he would look to 'exit harvey out rather than exit him in'. He would make sure that Harvey's decision was best for Harvey and the club.
[.[/b]
Saints 43 you have madea WRONG assumption and called mea liar for the wrong comment...and one that I did not refer to.
Yes I live in Melbourne and heard GT THIS YEAR bagging Harvey and stating that he "saw the signs" last year that Harvey was gone.
So if GT saw the signs LAST year...if he had still had been head coach Harvey would have not been playing this year. It is pretty obvious is it not....or was GT lying?????
So which is it Saints 43...did GT see the signs LAST year or not?
You were not referring to the statement GT made when he used the phrase 'exited out' but used the phrase 'exited out' when referring to his "saw the signs" statement?
Interesting.
It is not the only example in that post that has seen assertions made regarding your use of information.
edit: I have not seen the GT "saw the signs" statement in it's entirety so could not make a judgement whether Bob would still be playing under GT in 2008. In fact, no-one could.
Last edited by Saints43 on Thu 18 Sep 2008 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.
markp wrote:Sorry rodge, after making the prelim RL is still 'just a coach'... if we win on saturday RL is a 'genuine coach'... but GT never won a prelim, and was a 'good coach'...
Is 'genuine' better than 'good'?
If we finish 12th next year, saying Lyon is a good coach would be wrong.
If we continue to improve or at least maintain what we've achieved this year, then absolutely, another prelim would definately make Lyon a 'good' coach in my book.
Forget predictions for next year, what if we win on Saturday?
rodgerfox wrote:
I'd argue that most could have coached that list to a win last Saturday night against Collingwood.
I think you might be giving the coach just a tad to much credit.
Surely then most could have taken that list to the finals GT did too?
saintsRrising wrote:3/ No King. King dominated and not just the ruck, but his around the ground leadership. Kosi and Rix sharing the ruck would not have had anywhere near the impact.
I didn't realise Geelong offered St Kilda King for a pick they did not need when GT was there. He did try to recruit Brogan, Cox, Lade etc.
Now you are just being silly. We are talking about IF GT was still head coach remember??????
Therefore King would have been available in GT's "extended" tenure...
...but GT's expressed recruiting policy would have meant that King would not have been taken due to his age. Follow?
Saints43 wrote:
He did try to recruit Brogan, Cox, Lade etc.
So..??? What does that matter?? What counts is what was achieved.
The Pies have been trying to land big name players for years from GTrain to Jonathon Brown and have got squat. Does that mean because they tried to land them that they did well in their trading? = no.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
So do you believe that GT would have traded pick 26 for both Schneider and Dempster??
IMO this deal came about because of Lyon, his relationship with Roos....and Lyon's detailed knowldege of Dempster and Schneider and his desire to get them to suit his vision for the St Kilda Team.
Lyon from press reports went after Schneider.
Saints43 wrote:
Is that based on GT's refusal to trade for players?
.[/b]
I think you better go back and revisit our trade history. GT was an active trader.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
So do you believe that GT would have traded pick 26 for both Schneider and Dempster??
IMO this deal came about because of Lyon, his relationship with Roos....and Lyon's detailed knowldege of Dempster and Schneider and his desire to get them to suit his vision for the St Kilda Team.
Lyon from press reports went after Schneider.
Saints43 wrote:
Is that based on GT's refusal to trade for players?
.[/b]
I think you better go back and revisit our trade history. GT was an active trader.
markp wrote:Sorry rodge, after making the prelim RL is still 'just a coach'... if we win on saturday RL is a 'genuine coach'... but GT never won a prelim, and was a 'good coach'...
Is 'genuine' better than 'good'?
If we finish 12th next year, saying Lyon is a good coach would be wrong.
If we continue to improve or at least maintain what we've achieved this year, then absolutely, another prelim would definately make Lyon a 'good' coach in my book.
Forget predictions for next year, what if we win on Saturday?
He's done a great job this year if we win on Saturday. But I think it's pretty obvious, that one year does not make a great coach.
Surely anyone would agree with that??
markp wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
I'd argue that most could have coached that list to a win last Saturday night against Collingwood.
I think you might be giving the coach just a tad to much credit.
Surely then most could have taken that list to the finals GT did too?
It's the posters who argued that for the first 18 months of his tenure that RL was achieving nearly all that was possible with the on-field and off-field resources at his disposal whos initial premise was incorrect.
You were the ones who were satisfied for this club to be out of finals contention.
I don't know if you are refering to me??? When I ever posted that I was satisfied that we were not playing finals?
Before GT departed I wrote long and detailed posts on the deficiencies at the Club...and why we were going backwards.
While it may have been the view of some that Lyon would just put his feet under the desk and then raise up the Premiership Cup it was not mine.
I had a long list of problems...including list defiencies...but also well beyond this...that needed to be rectified.
I also list a long list of things that had to occur to win a flag....
...and more so 6 months later when I heard via an ex-Club Doc how Lyon had taken the then Board to task over the dismal player conditioning mangement at the saints. Via this source I know that Lyon was stunned at how poor the Saints were in this regard and that he DEAMANED that the Board act on this immediately (which they did.....the Ross Smith led review completely rebuilding this aspect of the Club.....and a process commenced well before Footy First).
The reason that I have been supportive of Lyon is that he was working towards making us more successful with purpose and with vision.
I see application and progress ina broad range of areas.
Now while you it would seem are of the view that 2006 was an aberation under GT, to me it was reality and indicative of the decline that GT's mismangement of many years was resulting in.
We should have had a flag in 2004/2005...make no mistake. GT bungled it. Top 4 with the list that had been assembled was an underachievement.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
saintsRrising wrote:
The reason that I have been supportive of Lyon is that he was working towards making us more successful with purpose and with vision.
Your answer should have been 'I don't know that'...
Why? I wrote an opinion piece
And before you rabbit on about it having to be fact...how could it as we are talking abouta hypothetical about what would have been IF GT was still at the Club. Hence quite clearly all the points are my opinion of what the situation would have been.
Saints43 wrote:
The trading statement was meant to be ironic...
Do you really really believe that GT could have landed the deal that Lyon did???
As you detailed GT was an expert at "trying" to get good players when he was coach...and not actually getting them.
GT = trying
RL = getting
Last edited by saintsRrising on Thu 18 Sep 2008 12:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
It's the posters who argued that for the first 18 months of his tenure that RL was achieving nearly all that was possible with the on-field and off-field resources at his disposal whos initial premise was incorrect.
You were the ones who were satisfied for this club to be out of finals contention.
I don't know if you are refering to me??? When I ever posted that I was satisfied that we were not playing finals?
Before GT departed I wrote long and detailed posts on the deficiencies at the Club...and why we were going backwards.
While it may have been the view of some that Lyon would just put his feet under the desk and then raise up the Premiership Cup it was not mine.
I had a long list of problems...including list defiencies...but also well beyond this...that needed to be rectified.
I also list a long list of things that had to occur to win a flag....
...and more so 6 months later when I heard via an ex-Club Doc how Lyon had taken the then Board to task over the dismal player conditioning mangement at the saints. Via this source I know that Lyon was stunned at how poor the Saints were in this regard and that he DEAMANED that the Board act on this immediately (which they did.....the Ross Smith led review completely rebuilding this aspect of the Club.....and a process commenced well before Footy First).
The reason that I have been supportive of Lyon is that he was working towards making us more successful with purpose and with vision.
I see application and progress ina broad range of areas.
Now while you it would seem are of the view that 2006 was an aberation under GT, to me it was reality and indicative of the decline that GT's mismangement of many years was resulting in.
We should have had a flag in 2004/2005...make no mistake. GT bungled it. Top 4 with the list that had been assembled was an underachievement.
Sorry to break the news to you SrR, and this may come as a shock to you......but.......
markp wrote:Sorry rodge, after making the prelim RL is still 'just a coach'... if we win on saturday RL is a 'genuine coach'... but GT never won a prelim, and was a 'good coach'...
Is 'genuine' better than 'good'?
If we finish 12th next year, saying Lyon is a good coach would be wrong.
If we continue to improve or at least maintain what we've achieved this year, then absolutely, another prelim would definately make Lyon a 'good' coach in my book.
Forget predictions for next year, what if we win on Saturday?
He's done a great job this year if we win on Saturday. But I think it's pretty obvious, that one year does not make a great coach.
Surely anyone would agree with that??
markp wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
I'd argue that most could have coached that list to a win last Saturday night against Collingwood.
I think you might be giving the coach just a tad to much credit.
Surely then most could have taken that list to the finals GT did too?
What's GT got to do with it??
FFS, some of you guys need to move on.
Just laughable this obsession.
Errr... my point is that if according to you GT was a 'good' coach without a prelim win, then surely RL could be called a 'good' coach with one... Who said great?
I'll take your response to the second point as a yes.....
markp wrote:Sorry rodge, after making the prelim RL is still 'just a coach'... if we win on saturday RL is a 'genuine coach'... but GT never won a prelim, and was a 'good coach'...
Is 'genuine' better than 'good'?
If we finish 12th next year, saying Lyon is a good coach would be wrong.
If we continue to improve or at least maintain what we've achieved this year, then absolutely, another prelim would definately make Lyon a 'good' coach in my book.
Forget predictions for next year, what if we win on Saturday?
He's done a great job this year if we win on Saturday. But I think it's pretty obvious, that one year does not make a great coach.
Surely anyone would agree with that??
markp wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
I'd argue that most could have coached that list to a win last Saturday night against Collingwood.
I think you might be giving the coach just a tad to much credit.
Surely then most could have taken that list to the finals GT did too?
What's GT got to do with it??
FFS, some of you guys need to move on.
Just laughable this obsession.
Errr... my point is that if according to you GT was a 'good' coach without a prelim win, then surely RL could be called a 'good' coach with one... Who said great?
I'll take your response to the second point as a yes.....
I'm unsure why you're so obessessed with my personal ratings of a coach's abilities.
But anyway....
If Lyon coaches our club to a GF, then yes, he's a 'good' coach.
Absolutely. He's coached well, and to get any club with any list into the top 2 of the comp would be a great effort.
rodgerfox wrote:
I'm unsure why you're so obessessed with my personal ratings of a coach's abilities.
Because you have been one of heads of the shyte-bag RL brigade, and you are such a pedantic flog yourself... any attempt by you to find some wiggle-room now or damn him with feint praise is amusing.
the fact that lyon has got us this far makes him already a very good coach.
I am unsure if we could beat hawthorn or geelong . (although i do give us a chance of beating hawthorn, dependin on how the backline goes against franklin , rioli, roughhead and williams. ) we do have a chance
i know it won't be be because of his coaching that we may not win.
It will be because we don't have the players to match up with the top two teams. not becuase of the coach!
rodgerfox wrote:
I'm unsure why you're so obessessed with my personal ratings of a coach's abilities.
Because you have been one of heads of the shyte-bag RL brigade, and you are such a pedantic flog yourself... any attempt by you to find some wiggle-room now or damn him with feint praise is amusing.
If you feel that way, can I ask why you bother to respond to me all the time?
Just seems a little odd.
And in reference to the 'shyte-bag RL brigade' - I'd like to you find one single post from me that in way degrades, belittles or in any way 'shyte-bags' Ross Lyon in any other way than my personal opinion on his ability as an AFL coach, please provide it.
I can't see how or why anyone would take umberidge at a footy supporter sharing their views on a coach on a footy forum.
rodgerfox wrote:
I'm unsure why you're so obessessed with my personal ratings of a coach's abilities.
Because you have been one of heads of the shyte-bag RL brigade, and you are such a pedantic flog yourself... any attempt by you to find some wiggle-room now or damn him with feint praise is amusing.
If you feel that way, can I ask why you bother to respond to me all the time?
Just seems a little odd.
And in reference to the 'shyte-bag RL brigade' - I'd like to you find one single post from me that in way degrades, belittles or in any way 'shyte-bags' Ross Lyon in any other way than my personal opinion on his ability as an AFL coach, please provide it.
I can't see how or why anyone would take umberidge at a footy supporter sharing their views on a coach on a footy forum.
Just bizarre.
Oh well, that's Saintsational for you!!
I don't take umbrage at all... nor do I respond to you all the time... merely when I feel like it and it amuses me (which, bizarre or not, one would think is the whole point of the site).
Trawling through all your previous posts to prove a point that needs no proof would not amuse me at all however.... we all know where you stand, and what you are standing in.
rodgerfox wrote:
I'm unsure why you're so obessessed with my personal ratings of a coach's abilities.
Because you have been one of heads of the shyte-bag RL brigade, and you are such a pedantic flog yourself... any attempt by you to find some wiggle-room now or damn him with feint praise is amusing.
If you feel that way, can I ask why you bother to respond to me all the time?
Just seems a little odd.
And in reference to the 'shyte-bag RL brigade' - I'd like to you find one single post from me that in way degrades, belittles or in any way 'shyte-bags' Ross Lyon in any other way than my personal opinion on his ability as an AFL coach, please provide it.
I can't see how or why anyone would take umberidge at a footy supporter sharing their views on a coach on a footy forum.
Just bizarre.
Oh well, that's Saintsational for you!!
I don't take umbrage at all... nor do I respond to you all the time... merely when I feel like it and it amuses me (which, bizarre or not, one would think is the whole point of the site).
Trawling through all your previous posts to prove a point that needs no proof would not amuse me at all however.... we all know where you stand, and what you are standing in.
We do know where I stand.
I've made it incredibly clear all along.
Which is why I find your responses so odd and bizarre.
As for the point of this site - here I am thinking it was a place for people to discuss, debate and voice opinions and views on footy.
Not to belittle, degrade, abuse and bully other posters.
