Forward set up

[bigcarl]

Id also like to see Kosi trialled as a roaming CHF with the opportunity to drift in with the ball .....maybe give Roo greater time at FF early in season till he regains his peak fitness.

plugger's right. riewoldt's our best option at full forward.

problem is he's also our best chf, winger and probably chb ... and would go okay in the ruck as well.

but i think he's right that riewoldt at ff is our best opportunity of kicking a winning score, particularly if the choice is between him, kosi and gilbert.

as solar pointed out, it means that if we play kick it to roo at least there will be a spillage close to goal.

also it gives our onballers another option. kick it to roo or kick it yourself.

[Loyal]

who needs to read play when you stand taller than a manhattan skyscraper and you have a midfield that compulsively deliver?

kosi was one of the main reasons we did so well last year.
guy is HUGE !!
wish people would get off his back and dals aswell. dal is going to have a huge year as is kosi.
these guys are MASSIVE for us.
name one (1) fullback in the competition who stands taller than kosi......

The drugs you are on are probably illegal.

Kosi is big, Stephen King is huge.

Kosi did bugger all in getting us to 4th last year.

Kosi has had a good uninterrupted preseason, as he did last year.

I hope he tears the comp apart this year, but he certainly has not gone anywhere near meeting his potential in the last 5 years.

Get real and don't make ridiculous statements.

By the way Setanta O'Hailpin is taller and bigger than Kosi, could be an interesting contest in round 12.

"kosi did bugger all in getting us to 4th last year"
.. do you go to the games?

it's not about numbers with kosi. it's about being impactful.
his importance can not be measured in numbers.

Setanta O'hAilpin OMFG.....
I'll get back to you when O'hAilpin can play on Kosi.
Do you really think that O'hAilpin has any idea on how to stop The Big Kosman?

[spert]

I just don't think Kozi is a forward -he needs to go down back where he can play a more straight ahead game.
I would rather persist with McEvoy at FF and give him some real experience and development for a few games in that position, also Gwilt should be in the forward line or in the middle. I would like to see NDS played in a forward pocket, not on the wing.

[SainterK]

We have the players, we have the ability....in fact, we are one of the better teams equipped up forward.

Here are some positive realities

Roo can only improve on his first half of last year
Luke Ball is again capable of kicking a couple
Kosi has had a great preseason
We have one of the best small forwards in the comp in Milne

I don't buy the "remember when" arguments, given how much the game style has changed since then. It's not our ability, I cannot emphasise that enough...

[Bernard Shakey]

Setanta O'hAilpin OMFG.....
I'll get back to you when O'hAilpin can play on Kosi.
Do you really think that O'hAilpin has any idea on how to stop The Big Kosman?

You asked for the name of a back that stands taller than Kosi. Setanta does.

Personally I'd love Kosi to play on him every week, because he'd probably kick 150 for the year.

[matrix]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

[plugger66]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

G was one the quickest over 20 metres at the club. We now lack someone like that who can take a mark on a lead. You dont need to be big but you need to know how and when to lead. Rooy does have it, Kosi does not and there isnt to many other options at the moment.

[WayneJudson42]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

G was one the quickest over 20 metres at the club. We now lack someone like that who can take a mark on a lead. You dont need to be big but you need to know how and when to lead. Rooy does have it, Kosi does not and there isnt to many other options at the moment.

Tend to agree with that. Are you saying it's a natural instinct, or can it be taught? If the latter, I'd settle Gwilt at FF... he's a great kick.

A fit Kosi at CFH like J Brown is my preference for him... Otherwise FB.

[plugger66]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

G was one the quickest over 20 metres at the club. We now lack someone like that who can take a mark on a lead. You dont need to be big but you need to know how and when to lead. Rooy does have it, Kosi does not and there isnt to many other options at the moment.

Tend to agree with that. Are you saying it's a natural instinct, or can it be taught? If the latter, I'd settle Gwilt at FF... he's a great kick.

A fit Kosi at CFH like J Brown is my preference for him... Otherwise FB.

Im not sure it can be taught. I think you either have it or dont. I beleive Jimmy would be to slow in the mind and off the mark to make a FF but who knows. It doesnt look like RL knows so how would we.

[matrix]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

G was one the quickest over 20 metres at the club. We now lack someone like that who can take a mark on a lead. You dont need to be big but you need to know how and when to lead. Rooy does have it, Kosi does not and there isnt to many other options at the moment.

agreed.
but i really dont want Roo kicking for goal unless he really friggin has to.
i still reckon he is a 50/50 shot.
hopefully he changes that this year and comes out slotting them at 75% +

G wasnt SUPER quick tho.........but we seemed to find him on a lead in SPACE.
at the moment there doesnt seem to be too much space being created around our fowrads area.
im really looking forward to this season to see what Ross does.....our forward line (IMO) is our only major prob

[St Chris]

but i really dont want Roo kicking for goal unless he really friggin has to.
i still reckon he is a 50/50 shot.
hopefully he changes that this year and comes out slotting them at 75% +

Here's the start and finish of this discussion.

Without being a stats guru (perhaps someone could either back me up, or shoot me down completely??) I'd dare to say that our Inside 50's haven't dropped since 2004, or our shots on goal either, it's just our kicking for goal has been shocking in the last 2 or 3 years.

It takes so much great play from the whole team for Kosi, or Roo, or anyone, to take a big strong grab inside 50, and for them to go back and spray the kicks at goal just deflates the side, it deflates the supporters, and it leads itself to us kicking lower scores that we probably deserve.

Our shots on the run are no better, and hayes, ball and dal santo are some of the best users of the ball in our team but, for lack of a better term, choke, when they see the big sticks in front of them.

The 2009 emphasis on "2 goals more per game" doesn't take any great change of gameplan or modification of the forward setup, it just takes a bit of confidence when you're lining up a shot at goal.

Here's hoping we go out on saturday night and kick 20 goals 5, smash the swans, and set the st kilda standard for a succesful 2009

[matrix]

Here's the start and finish of this discussion.

[WayneJudson42]

we need a FF.......have done since the big G left.
funny how G, who isnt the quckest off the standing start, always managed to find SPACE on a lead....that hasnt really happened since we lost him.
how many time do we see Roo or Kozi double, even triple teamed???

Roo AND Kozi at CHF, both starting in the middle of the CHF possie, leaving space to run wide or straight if needed, someone small at their heels, then find a decent FF and drop milne and schneider at their feet.

look at Mark Willams from the Hawks?....u dont have to be a big unit to play at FF, lead AND kick goals....... (as an eg)

G was one the quickest over 20 metres at the club. We now lack someone like that who can take a mark on a lead. You dont need to be big but you need to know how and when to lead. Rooy does have it, Kosi does not and there isnt to many other options at the moment.

agreed.
but i really dont want Roo kicking for goal unless he really friggin has to.
i still reckon he is a 50/50 shot.
hopefully he changes that this year and comes out slotting them at 75% +

G wasnt SUPER quick tho.........but we seemed to find him on a lead in SPACE.
at the moment there doesnt seem to be too much space being created around our fowrads area.
im really looking forward to this season to see what Ross does.....our forward line (IMO) is our only major prob

G had ther body to out muscle opponentss. Was never a pack-breaker.

Run is a run and lead player and I don't think he has the same body skills as Franklin.

Kosi on the other hand, can smash a pack open and take a grab, hence why CHF might work better for him.

Gwilt... I'm not sure if it's a mental thing with him.

Gilbert... maybe?

The key with all of this is who we can get on the park down back... which in turn allows us to play players in their most dangerous position.

It's a domino effect...key backs mean BJ and Fish into the middle... which then provides better entry... which leads to a more potent fwd line.

[Armoooo]

I hope the clowns over at TalkingCrap don't stumble across this thread...

Kosi IS a wildcard, he has been a good player the past few years without being anything special.

Kosi has the potential to be a brownlow medalist... BUT how old does a player get before you stop talking about their potential and start talking about their output?

ATM Kosi is probably somewhere around the middle of the pack (For our starting 22) he can have some good games, he can have some bad games. I've stopped thinking about him as a player who will help take us into a GF and started to think of him as a GOP who can hopefully do his part for the team.

[To the top]

In reference to Gehrig, his attributes playing at full forward were his ability to present and his kicking ability.

But Gehrig could be stopped, as can all forwards, and he had very quiet games. He was double teamed, which is why we yearned for a fit Koschitzke lurking - double team Gehrig and how do you double or triple team Koschitzke sitting in the square?

Once in front and presenting Gehrig was at his most dangerous because defenders could not get around him.

But (again!) he was not a pack marker and rarely took a "speccy" - his opportunities came from his leading and almost exclusively.

Even Lockett had trouble with double teaming, which Sheedy applied every time we played Essendon (and Lockett nearly killed one who left him with scratch marks up and down his back, until Loewe pulled him off the head lock) - and others tried to do, sometimes succesfully.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

rooey playing straight ff he kicks 80+

however he is that good around up the ground its a sin to leave him deep at times considering kosi etc could do a similar job at times...

[bigcarl]

rooey playing straight ff he kicks 80+

however he is that good around up the ground its a sin to leave him deep at times considering kosi etc could do a similar job at times...

you think kosi is capable of 80+?

[gringo]

Im hoping Jarrod Allen can show a bit when hes back. But Rhys Stanley looks like he has a bit of Hammil about him judging from the Youtube clips- holds the ball in, runs down players. Maybe what we need is a player who can stop the ball going out. Gwilt could be good for that role. Hammil never consistently kicked bags of goals but he was a dangerous player that no one took their eye off incase he ran through them.

[Longwayfromhome]

Not a Kosi fan. Certainly not in our forward structure. OK he can smash a pack and possibly take the odd grab. One day he'll smash our captain so keep him well away. Round 1, have him standing in the hole at the Sydney half forward line.
If we are going to play a loose man in defence then make it Kosi.
Gilbert, Gwilt or Dawson can play full forward.

[Teflon]

what I havent seen mentioned yet in this thread and which IMO IS the area Ive noticed us fall down is delivery of the footy into our fwd line.

To me its due in part because we have been learning to be more defensive (and we need to be - look at Richmond....no tackles, no defence and simply get belted off the park cause of it) ...actually when they get in fwd 50 Richmond look dangerous...we often dont

BUT if we are going to kick decent winning score this year imo the order of improvement fwd of the centre has to be:

1. Ball movement into fwd 50 - includes better transition out of defence
2. Fwd structure - multiple targets...not a 1 trick Riewoldt pony ...
3. Fwd defensive pressure - since Hamill how often do we see us get killed on the rebound?
4. Goal kicing accuracy - we need to get better returns for our hard work simple as that...Kosi misses way to many so too Hayes.

On top of that Id suggest its time we got some goals from mids to also give the fwds a chop out.

I think we get enough supply...its HOW we use it going fwd and how hard we pressure to keep it there.

Already in pre season games the alarming trend is there....our conversion into goals from fwd entries has been poor......that to me spells trouble and also suggests the problems above still exist.

Its why 2009 is a very important year for Ross and some "stars".

[bigcarl]

BUT if we are going to kick decent winning score this year imo the order of improvement fwd of the centre has to be:

1. Ball movement into fwd 50 - includes better transition out of defence
2. Fwd structure - multiple targets...not a 1 trick Riewoldt pony ...
3. Fwd defensive pressure - since Hamill how often do we see us get killed on the rebound?
4. Goal kicing accuracy - we need to get better returns for our hard work simple as that...Kosi misses way to many so too Hayes.

how about keeping the semblance of a forward line in place rather than all 18 guys behind the ball.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

rooey playing straight ff he kicks 80+

however he is that good around up the ground its a sin to leave him deep at times considering kosi etc could do a similar job at times...

you think kosi is capable of 80+?

at times

if kosi plays more deep 40, roo 60

if roo plays ff...roo 80+

[Teflon]

BUT if we are going to kick decent winning score this year imo the order of improvement fwd of the centre has to be:

1. Ball movement into fwd 50 - includes better transition out of defence
2. Fwd structure - multiple targets...not a 1 trick Riewoldt pony ...
3. Fwd defensive pressure - since Hamill how often do we see us get killed on the rebound?
4. Goal kicing accuracy - we need to get better returns for our hard work simple as that...Kosi misses way to many so too Hayes.

how about keeping the semblance of a forward line in place rather than all 18 guys behind the ball.

I know you feel all our answers are just in the "play Roo at FF and we win" space but sadly ALL teams get numbers behind the ball and if you dont you simply get outnumbered at the other end.

I thought when we won what 8 from 11 last year that having no one at home was not an issue...time to bang a new drum Id suggest.

[bigcarl]

I know you feel all our answers are just in the "play Roo at FF and we win" space.

nonsense. in fact i agree with the four points you raised and was just adding one that you seem to have overlooked.

you could also put in ridding ourselves of the defensive and negative mindset that we begin most games with.

[Teflon]

I know you feel all our answers are just in the "play Roo at FF and we win" space.

nonsense. in fact i agree with the four points you raised and was just adding one that you seem to have overlooked.

you could also put in ridding ourselves of the defensive and negative mindset that we begin most games with.

I agree with your last point - there is nothing wrong with what we are trying to do...it is IMO a mental issue that Lyon and team must overcome.

I read with interest Mark Robinson (a clown but he made a good point) HS article on how Richmond are ok offensively but dismal defensively and we just saw it tonight....they apply NO pressure.

Clearly Lyon wants that for us and hes got to make serious inroads this year - we cant continue with half game efforts or come from behind wins.