Returning to Moorabbin part time??

[BigMart]

Lots of people live in two houses??

I think you could change that to 'a few' Rather than 'lots'

A few very rich people who have a home in Brighton, and perhaps another in sorrento, and have a 7 figure salary.....most of us normal people just live in the one (of we are lucky enough to be in the market)

Cant use The holiday home analogy either, that doesn't stick, we are talking two facilities in operational use.... not a community camp we go to once a year.

We are not a wealthy club and surely cannot sustain two facilities.

My idea would involve restructuring the afl reserves and the VFL

And possibly separating training facilities and home bases/grounds.

I have never liked the VFL alignment competition, it has never been fully supported by either league and both have just taken what they need from each other.... Whilst its been symbiotic in its needs....there has always Been the us/them problem....friction and issues with mechanics.

The AFL development league should involve the Victorian clubs in the AFL

Their home grounds should/could be traditional grounds. The majority of supplementary players should be under 21 from sister clubs who get paid per game and they could nominate a couple of vetrans outside the list for leadership purposes, whom are paid by the club.

Teams in a 10 team competition
Carlton......Princes Park......
Collingwood...... Vic Park.......training base, Lexus Centre
Essendon ........ Windy Hill......training base at tullamarine
Footscray......... Whitten Oval.....
Geelong.......... Kardinya park
Hawthorn.........glenferie oval or box hill oval (shared) training base at waverly
Melbourne.......Casey fields (shared) training base....unknown
North Melb....... Arden street (or princess park shared)
Richmond....... Punt Rd Oval
Stkilda........... Moorabbin ........ Training base at Seaford

I think there would be a lot of interest in such a competition. The home grounds would require some upgrade as far as undercover grandstand to accommodate at least a couple of thousand with a change room and canteen. Some benching and grassed areas for sitting...much like Vic Park is currently and some toilet facilities. The money for this upgrading could be a combination of AFL funding/concil funding/club funding/sponsership...

Casey Fields facilities are about the right size and spend. I reckon you wouldget a couple of thou to each game. Sharing of grounds facilities could occur between some clubs either within the same league or other leagues.

The VFL should be a separate 10 team competition and a still viewed as a pathway for recruiting for mature age players.... And should have a sister club to provide supplementary players to AFL development league if need or receive excess afl listed players. Players would need to be nominated.

Traditional clubs
Port Melbourne.
Box Hill
Frankston
Werribee
Williamstown
Sandringham
Coburg
North Ballarat
Casey
Bendigo

Possibly a costly exercise initially, but in the long run would beneficial. The VFL would get its identity back, and should perhaps return to the VFA name....and still play the TFL/WAFL/SANFL annually
The AFL clubs would get control of development back.... Also appropriate size grounds for developing players to play on
Traditional home grounds would again be functional within the community.....
Income could be generated through gate costs/memberships/maybe TV exposure for games. Sponsorship would increase due to second tier team getting more exposure.
A big cost of clubs for income purposes is player payments....well, afl players get paid anyway by clubs so implementing this league would only be facilities and running costs. Even if this ran at a cost of an extra Millioner club... That is nothing for clubs who turn over between 50-100million annuall and the AFL could sink money into the league to make it viable.

Talk about flooding the market.... As the AFL want to do
To have the Second tier in the market place would also would be a feather in their cap.

Anyways

[3rd generation saint]

I trust a lot of people watched Scott Watters on Before the Game last night and his comments regarding this story.
Let's remember two things regarding this story.
Firstly, Caroline Wilson wrote it, remember the one who fully supported KD's version of things and has never repented and is hardly the most respected journo on this forum, unless of course she is agreeing with certain factions on this forum.
Two, probably the most important information that everyone has overlooked, we still have a 28 year lease on Moorabbin, so it would be prudent that we utilise it over the next 28 years.
like everyone I would have preferred to have stayed at Moorabbin, but I can also can understand what it is like to deal with idiot Councils who try to justify their existence and their budgets so that we all pay over inflated rates.
The smart thing for the club is to best utilise both facilities to their optimum output of income for the club.
As I said previously, it would be great to restore the Social Club back where fans could gather for a meal and drinks to watch interstate games on the big screen.
Also utilise it for open training sessions, family days etc.
We have an oppotunity to turn these facilities into the envy of the other clubs.
Or we can just sit back, bitch, complain and do what we have done in the past and tear ourselves apart over petty differences of opinion.
I'm tired of being negative, all I want to try and be from now on is positive about the future of our club.
I think we have an outstanding coach, I think our overlooked youth over the past few years will produice some real gems and provide for the basis of the next group of players for this club to have another crack.
And I think that despite the fact it is easy to be critical over what has happened here, it is also easy to see the positive implications of this as well.

[saintbrat]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

[defacto]

i wont comment on the past. i am a relatively young saints support compared to others who have been around alot longer and seen alot more (i am 28, started following when heatley came across from subi).

what worries me is our image and identity. we are starting to show cracks and signs of north melbourne and the doggies. even melbourne before big jim sorted out the mess.

our image has been destroyed because our club couldnt manage the media during a crisis. now sponsors wont touch us and membership is down. we are struggling to stay relevant. we are struggling to attract people to the club. if were not carefull our debt and losses will grow, our support base will dwindle and we'll start to join the ranks of the western bulldogs and north melbourne.

we have up until the next tv rights to sort this crap out. if we go into the next tv rights negotiation in the position were in now, then were doomed. we'll face either a merger or relocation.

[BigMart]

I don't think we have an opportunity to turn any facilities into the envy of the Lexus Centre. We are not even profitable.

[defacto]

rarely do i agree with bigmart but gee he's hit the nail on the head twice in this thread.

[plugger66]

rarely do i agree with bigmart but gee he's hit the nail on the head twice in this thread.

And how could these grounds become good enough to play VFL games at? It would cost a fortune. Of course it sounds good but it isnt possible. And without the AFL players the old VFA would be dead. Again it is all nice and happy but it died years ago but the AFL clubs being involved gave it extra years.

[BigMart]

Not sure why it would die??

It would just be a lesser comp..... It survived throughout the 20th century being a second tier comp...

It also has plenty of feeder comps
Ie/ frankston - MPNFL, Sandrigham - Southern, Box Hill - Eastern, Casey - Cardinia.....

Of course it can be achieved.... The big mistake was going away from it....
The late 90's were some of the best years for the VFL

There are plenty of 19-25yo players who would entertain a second level competition, with the aim of getting drafted, or re-drafted. Myke Cook, Adam Cockie etc.... These are still good players and Standard would still be high....there are plenty of just delisted, or just missed out on the draft....

Most of these grounds are currently in use..... Only really moorabbin and Windy Hill that would need an upgrade... And we are not talking state of the art, 10 000 capacity stands... As I mentioned Casey scorpion style grand stand would suffice... They need to be cleaned anyway as they are dumps....

The current VFL grounds are worse.... And AFL players ce with that....

[plugger66]

Not sure why it would die??

It would just be a lesser comp..... It survived throughout the 20th century being a second tier comp...

It also has plenty of feeder comps
Ie/ frankston - MPNFL, Sandrigham - Southern, Box Hill - Eastern, Casey - Cardinia.....

Of course it can be achieved.... The big mistake was going away from it....
The late 90's were some of the best years for the VFL

There are plenty of 19-25yo players who would entertain a second level competition, with the aim of getting drafted, or re-drafted. Myke Cook, Adam Cockie etc.... These are still good players and Standard would still be high....there are plenty of just delisted, or just missed out on the draft....

Most of these grounds are currently in use..... Only really moorabbin and Windy Hill that would need an upgrade... And we are not talking state of the art, 10 000 capacity stands... As I mentioned Casey scorpion style grand stand would suffice... They need to be cleaned anyway as they are dumps....

The current VFL grounds are worse.... And AFL players ce with that....

Not talking about players. The supporters need a little grandstand and of course toilets help. Anyway It may have survived years ago as the second comp but under what you said it would be the third. Clubs would struggle. I think Sandy have already said if we go then they are nearly gone. Frankston are a waste of space. In your defence Port are better than great but the problem is there would be about 10 clubs trying to compete like then. I think eventually most clubs will have seconds sides but there will be no VFA. They will either try to compete in that comp or go to a local comp.

[spert]

Back to the Junction Oval!!!

[BigMart]

So clubs with 100 year histories like Port, Sandy, Wiiliamstown at state league level....would go to a local comp..... Can't really imagine the 'borough' competing in the southern footy league....


I would think the comments coming from Sandy not being able go it alone ... Would be under the guise of playing against clubs with AFL alignments. If it was a state level comp they would not have to compete against AFL budgets.... As frankston struggle to do....

It would not be a third tier comp..... As it wasn't last century......

Port Melbourne 76-82, Sandringham 92-94, Springvale 95-99 would have smashed AFL reserves teams....

It would be an equal second tier, but most likely stronger due to maturity.

Ie/ at Sandy

AFL listed players
Cripps, Ferguson, Curran, Ledger, Archer, Andreoli, Newnes, Peake

VFL aligned players
Cockie, Cooke, Sikora, Shephard, Dowler, Hallahan, Irving

I would suggest the bigger bodies of the VFL would win out....

Every state needs a state league. Victoria can't have a gap from AFL standard to suburban standard.

[plugger66]

So clubs with 100 year histories like Port, Sandy, Wiiliamstown at state league level....would go to a local comp..... Can't really imagine the 'borough' competing in the southern footy league....


I would think the comments coming from Sandy not being able go it alone ... Would be under the guise of playing against clubs with AFL alignments. If it was a state level comp they would not have to compete against AFL budgets.... As frankston struggle to do....

It would not be a third tier comp..... As it wasn't last century......

Port Melbourne 76-82, Sandringham 92-94, Springvale 95-99 would have smashed AFL reserves teams....

It would be an equal second tier, but most likely stronger due to maturity.

Ie/ at Sandy

AFL listed players
Cripps, Ferguson, Curran, Ledger, Archer, Andreoli, Newnes, Peake

VFL aligned players
Cockie, Cooke, Sikora, Shephard, Dowler, Hallahan, Irving

I would suggest the bigger bodies of the VFL would win out....

Every state needs a state league. Victoria can't have a gap from AFL standard to suburban standard.

Under what you said our state league is the AFL seconds because they still couldnt field sides without other players so Cooke and Cockie would play with the Saints. The years you mentioned are mostly before the current guise got under way. You are right about the Borough, they would play in another comp. Sandy would be in the southern league.

[BigMart]

What other comp would Port be in?? Location wise?? What comp could accomodate any residual effects from their list/history

And good luck to the mighty Clays if Sandy start competing in the SFL!

It would be like when the Burnie Dockers went back to the NTFL after the state league collapsed.... They won 5 straight flags and kicked 49 goals in one game. It was a JOKE...

I don't think the AFL reserves would necessarily the best bet for mature age guys.... As every time a lesser but listed AFL player was available, they would have to make way..... Like Jay Lever, Jordan Staley, Sam Crocker....who remember played VFL reserves today...

The collapse of the state league would be a huge mistake.....two reasons

It would be quite an ask for a delisted or almost drafted player to get a second crack (ala Magner) running around in a surburban league.... Basically at 19yo chances would be limited....

It would be impossible for a Supplementary player to get to AFL reserves level if needed if they had been playing for Karingal in the MPNFL rather than Frankston in a VFL.

Football in Victoria is a big business..... It could comfortably support two levels of competition...

If anything, local
Leagues need to be watered down so they stop wasting huge money on name players and going to the wall constantly...

A local player on 1000 a game is a joke.... It kills local clubs who have to do it to compete, and really, players of that ilk should be having a crack outside small ponds....

[plugger66]

What other comp would Port be in?? Location wise?? What comp could accomodate any residual effects from their list/history

And good luck to the mighty Clays if Sandy start competing in the SFL!

It would be like when the Burnie Dockers went back to the NTFL after the state league collapsed.... They won 5 straight flags and kicked 49 goals in one game. It was a JOKE...

I don't think the AFL reserves would necessarily the best bet for mature age guys.... As every time a lesser but listed AFL player was available, they would have to make way..... Like Jay Lever, Jordan Staley, Sam Crocker....who remember played VFL reserves today...

The collapse of the state league would be a huge mistake.....two reasons

It would be quite an ask for a delisted or almost drafted player to get a second crack (ala Magner) running around in a surburban league.... Basically at 19yo chances would be limited....

It would be impossible for a Supplementary player to get to AFL reserves level if needed if they had been playing for Karingal in the MPNFL rather than Frankston in a VFL.

Football in Victoria is a big business..... It could comfortably support two levels of competition...

If anything, local
Leagues need to be watered down so they stop wasting huge money on name players and going to the wall constantly...

A local player on 1000 a game is a joke.... It kills local clubs who have to do it to compete, and really, players of that ilk should be having a crack outside small ponds....

All in a perfect world. How does what suggest stop players getting what a agree is way overpaid? It doesnt. I still think many good players would take the punt playing for the AFL seconds than what I would see becoming either a very minor comp or what I still see as happening eventually going into local leagues.

[Bad Co.]

As much as Eddie annoys me, if he was our president, he would have just said "we're going back to the Junction Oval, and spending the money there. Just try and stop us!". Although it's far easier flexing your muscles when your collingwood than everyone's favourite punching bag St.Kilda.
I live 2 minutes from Belvedere Park, and pray that it will work, but nothing ever seems to work out for us.
More Saints jumpers at Auskick than any other, except for the prison bar ferrels of course.

[BigMart]

Eddy made the call to Leave Vic Park..... A spiritual home if there ever was one!

[defacto]

i dont think bringing the reserves comp back is viable. wafl clubs over wont go for it.

dont think running a 2nd ground is viable either.

[Wrote for Luck]

Eddie got collingwood back at Vic Park though - got Council to pay millions for the refurbishment, new surface, artworks - it's terrific for vfl. But Eddie was there at Richmond Town Hall, making friends and doing what he does best, when they voted on it.
Can't see AFL letting an AFL Vic club listing of ten play in a revised VFL competition as it would probably attract too much support and money away from the big stadium games of the AFL
If you could watch one game a week and choose between St Kilda VFL at Linton Street Saturday arvo, or MCG night game, I reckon alot of people would ocassionally prefer the VFL

[plugger66]

Eddie got collingwood back at Vic Park though - got Council to pay millions for the refurbishment, new surface, artworks - it's terrific for vfl. But Eddie was there at Richmond Town Hall, making friends and doing what he does best, when they voted on it.
Can't see AFL letting an AFL Vic club listing of ten play in a revised VFL competition as it would probably attract too much support and money away from the big stadium games of the AFL
If you could watch one game a week and choose between St Kilda VFL at Linton Street Saturday arvo, or MCG night game, I reckon alot of people would ocassionally prefer the VFL

Not sure the pies seconds side has had any impact on the pies crowds. Dont think they will do it because of cost and it would also mean the end of many former VFA clubs.

[casey scorp]

Well it would be interesting to go back and look at my old posts. Howled down I was for suggesting that Belvedere would be a disaster, and that the club should seriously look at patching things up with Kingston Council and redeveloping at Moorabbin.

Caro’s article was spot on.

The club’s lack of due diligence on the Frankston Oval proposal was staggering, but the brainless changing of horses mid-race to Belvedere, with the Club maintaining “we’ll still be in the City of Frankston” as hoping somehow people wouldn’t twig that it was a second rate alternative.

People with long memories will recall that I initially advocated a relocation to Casey Fields when the Club first announced it would leave Moorabbin. That was when we were in an alignment with Casey Scorpions. But that all fell over when (in order) the club announced we’d go to Frankston Oval, Melbourne FC jumped into Casey Fields vacuum and the VFL alignments were switched.

Once Frankston Oval fell over, my advocacy was to redevelop Moorabbin rather than enter into an agreement with Frankston Council for Belvedere. It would not have been hard, particularly after the 2008 Council elections. The heads of agreement between Frankston Council and the club was only signed in September 2008 – 2 months prior to the election. Even at that stage (with a bit of talk about abandoning the Seaford/Frankston push coming from a few quarters) the Mayor of Kingston was saying they’d be happy to talk to St Kilda about remaining at Moorabbin.

But pride can be an unfortunate thing……..there were people involved who were never going to admit they’d got it wrong.

Well they did – twice.

Once, in rushing into announcing the Frankston Park announcement without having thoroughly checked it out - “they rushed in like firemen” one AFL CEO is known to have said.

Twice, in proceeding with a development at an isolated, invisible ground with no presence and the size of the facilities incredibly compromised by a lack of funds (which the AFL and State Government would not give any more to, than the $6 million they’d already offered, because it was such a dud decision to go there).

The vitriol launched against me for questioning the Board’s wisdom of proceeding with the Belvedere proposal rather than redeveloping at Moorabbin was incredible. I don’t know whether the old posts are still here – I haven’t bothered looking.

I’m not glad that the Club is stuck in a mess with the outcome of a bad decision, but I am pleased that a few on here have to eat huge quantities of humble pie.

[plugger66]

Well it would be interesting to go back and look at my old posts. Howled down I was for suggesting that Belvedere would be a disaster, and that the club should seriously look at patching things up with Kingston Council and redeveloping at Moorabbin.

Caro’s article was spot on.

The club’s lack of due diligence on the Frankston Oval proposal was staggering, but the brainless changing of horses mid-race to Belvedere, with the Club maintaining “we’ll still be in the City of Frankston” as hoping somehow people wouldn’t twig that it was a second rate alternative.

People with long memories will recall that I initially advocated a relocation to Casey Fields when the Club first announced it would leave Moorabbin. That was when we were in an alignment with Casey Scorpions. But that all fell over when (in order) the club announced we’d go to Frankston Oval, Melbourne FC jumped into Casey Fields vacuum and the VFL alignments were switched.

Once Frankston Oval fell over, my advocacy was to redevelop Moorabbin rather than enter into an agreement with Frankston Council for Belvedere. It would not have been hard, particularly after the 2008 Council elections. The heads of agreement between Frankston Council and the club was only signed in September 2008 – 2 months prior to the election. Even at that stage (with a bit of talk about abandoning the Seaford/Frankston push coming from a few quarters) the Mayor of Kingston was saying they’d be happy to talk to St Kilda about remaining at Moorabbin.

But pride can be an unfortunate thing……..there were people involved who were never going to admit they’d got it wrong.

Well they did – twice.

Once, in rushing into announcing the Frankston Park announcement without having thoroughly checked it out - “they rushed in like firemen” one AFL CEO is known to have said.

Twice, in proceeding with a development at an isolated, invisible ground with no presence and the size of the facilities incredibly compromised by a lack of funds (which the AFL and State Government would not give any more to, than the $6 million they’d already offered, because it was such a dud decision to go there).

The vitriol launched against me for questioning the Board’s wisdom of proceeding with the Belvedere proposal rather than redeveloping at Moorabbin was incredible. I don’t know whether the old posts are still here – I haven’t bothered looking.

I’m not glad that the Club is stuck in a mess with the outcome of a bad decision, but I am pleased that a few on here have to eat huge quantities of humble pie.

Well at least the Melbourne thing has worked out well.

[mr six o'clock]

I don't understand all the bickering on this thread . I'm not a big fan of the current board , i haven't agreed with allot of what they've done , however everyone here bagging them , why don't you get involved and attempt to become board members ?
then i'm sure we'll have million dollar profits and 50,000 members each year !

[Eastern]

I've read a bit about this Morabbin topic and here's what I think/hope the REAL STORY is;

There is a real need for a Community Football "HUB" and this has been identified by a number of organizations including VFL, TAC Cup, Southern Football League, Kingston Council and others. Moorabbin has been identified as ideal for most, if not ALL interested parties. The current lease (another 28 years) that St Kilda hold makes them/us A MAJOR STAKEHOLDER in this. I see the want/need for modern offices for the vfl, modern training/playing facilities for a number of groups and a community need for this type of facility. St Kilda using the facility on a part-time basis may help to secure State & Federal funding for this project.

The saints may (by default) hold the whip hand in all of this. The remainder of the Social Club/Grandstand would need to be demolished and replaced by modern facilities. This would necessitate the moving of the Social Club/Pokies, possibly to the corner of South Road as per the original plans. It will then be up to our Board/Admin to negotiate the BEST POSSIBLE DEAL for St Kilda FC re The "NEW" Social Club facility and what funding/assistance we receive to acheive this.

THIS IS MY THEORY. Anyone got a better one? !!

[saintbrat]

Latest development

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/sout ... 6601363696

[sunsaint]

I think I have connected the dots
its just a ploy to get goddard back to the club