is roo our greatest ever player?

[evertonfc]

Well, he has to be close now, doesn't he?

Lockett probaby edges him, perhaps for force of presence. But Riewoldt is making ground, especially on the presence front, late in his career.

By any measure, it has been an extraordinary 13 years of service.

[stevie]

I was thinking about where Roo would be if there was a Team of the 21st century picked for the whole league.

He would surely be in it but where? CHF? A flank? The bench? And would be he have a crack at being named capt or v/c?

[BigMart]

HFF

Tredrea 4 time AA CHF would probably edge him....

He is a better forward than
Brown, Pavlich, Hall

[BigMart]

Why is Harvey given his actual achievements and prolonged domination so understated?

No player has achieved what he has?

And none done it for as long?

I have him clear at #1

Put it this way, in a year Plugger kicked his highest goal tally 132
Harves won the B&F in that year

Mercurial ball handler, great user, creative, and at times freakish at ball winning (a skill in itself)

[True Blue Sainter]

HFF

Tredrea 4 time AA CHF would probably edge him....

He is a better forward than
Brown, Pavlich, Hall

Hall doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Brown, Pavlich, Tredrea & Roo.

I think Tredrea was a cross between Loewe and Riewoldt - in that he was equally comfortable taking a contested mark or running into space to take one on the lead. Having said that, I don't believe him to be quite as good as Roo, particularly taking into account he didn't sustain his periods of dominance over such a long period of time. I also believe he found himself to be AA CHF as a "victim of circumstance", Port dominated the H&A rounds for a good 5 seasons or so in the early 00s.

Browny was absolutely unstoppable on his day. As courageous as Roo, but with a bigger frame and the ability to REALLY clunk a contested grab. Kicked quite a few big time goals as well, that Roo over the journey may have shanked.

Pavlich just on the tier below Tredrea, Brown & Roo. Roo the best of the lot.

[plugger66]

Why is Harvey given his actual achievements and prolonged domination so understated?

No player has achieved what he has?

And none done it for as long?

I have him clear at #1

Put it this way, in a year Plugger kicked his highest goal tally 132
Harves won the B&F in that year

Mercurial ball handler, great user, creative, and at times freakish at ball winning (a skill in itself)

Because most think Lockett is better. Its called opinion. I think Lockett is the best footballer I have ever seen so its a fair chance I would have him ahead of harvey. Others may think the same way. Have no idea what harvey winning the B&F in the year Lockett kicked the most goals even means. The year Lockett won the B&F Harvey obviously didnt and it wasnt the year Lockett kicked the most goals for us.

[stevie]

HFF

Tredrea 4 time AA CHF would probably edge him....

He is a better forward than
Brown, Pavlich, Hall

I rate Browny way above trederea. Prolly on a par with Roo. There's room for both. Pavlova and hall wouldn't be in that side


I've never had any love for pavlova. He knew he was stuck in a dud team for years. It made him look better. Not saying he isn't or was a good player but I don't rate him with the other forwards of his era.

[BigMart]

Lockett is in the 3 best players I have ever seen also....

Not as good as Carey and or Ablett... Who had more strings to their bows.

As history goes, Lockett sits comfortably among the giants of the game... With Coleman and Hudson certainly the best FFs

Lockett did however kick 100 three times at Sydney (equal to StK) and he kicked 500 of his goals at another club. his AFL record is overall better than his StK record and his standing in the game is bigger than at StK.

He was also, Undisciplined, unfit and often injured at StK .... After 1987 and in his next 7 seasons, he only played ONE full season?!

Locket may be the best player I've seen wear a StK jumper in any one game, particularly at his peak.

But if we are talking overall contributions to StK footy club as a player... He achieved significantly less than Robert Harvey
Less...
And at his peak, like Lockett, was unstoppable?

His 1997/1998 were the best two individual seasons I've seen.... And compare with Gary Ablett Junior nowadays!

384 games.... He played twice as many as Lockett
200 Brownlow votes... Twice as many as Lockett

Longevity is as important IMO

How MANY games they direct influenced is the measure of their overall impact.... Not just how MUCH they did

[BigMart]

Riewoldt a far better footballer than Tredrea.... As is Pavlich, Richo and Brown

But for performances at traditional CHF Warren (like Sticks) he probably edges them.... The other players could be more flexible and either go deep or push around the ground... Better in general play.

[satchmo]

Contrast that with Ian Stewart. Another two sided player who showed the guts at every contest that we saw from David Armitage yesterday. He was one of the five who won us our flag (the other four were Baldock, Murray, Neale and Cooper).

Ian Stewart. Three Brownlow Medals, two Premierships.
One of those Brownlows was in 1966. We would very likely have no Premiership without him.

More importantly, as Perfectionist said, showed as much intestinal fortitude as anyone that has played the game.

He had some issues, and I'm pretty sure he would have enjoyed last years mad Monday. My understanding is that the club were keen to move him on, rather than a lack of loyalty. Very colourful character!

[stinger]

You can only talk about the players that you have seen, but can rely, to some extent, on stats for those you haven't.

For me, my eyewitness account goes back to 1960. Before that, the stats tend to show Billy Mohr as someone special. I remember Roy Wright (Richmond 2 times Brownlow winner) saying that Harold Bray was also an exceptionally skilled player.

In my time, I draw a distinction between the most skilled players and the best - some being on both lists and others not. Without a doubt, the most skilled Saints player I have seen - any player as far at that is concerned - is Tony Lockett. No-one I have ever seen can match his skills with both hands and both feet. His marking was near perfect. Along with another (Peter Hudson), he was the most accurate at kicking for goal. But, he was a little "lazy". That is, not every game saw his best effort.

Contrast that with Ian Stewart. Another two sided player who showed the guts at every contest that we saw from David Armitage yesterday. He was one of the five who won us our flag (the other four were Baldock, Murray, Neale and Cooper).

Then there is the Doc. In many ways, you had to see him play to know how he played. He was about the size of Leigh Montagna, and yet dominated the CHF position not only for the Saints but also for Tassie and then Victoria in interstate games. Literally, unbelievable.

I have also rated John McIntosh and Joel Smith as two of the most skilled players I have seen.

In the last twenty years, players such as Robert Harvey, Aussie Jones, Kosi, Brendon Goddard, Nick Dal Santo, Luke Ball and Lenny Hayes stand out.

Then there are two others. It is hard to imagine a more complete footballer than Nicky Winmar. He could, and did, do everything. But, on the one day that it mattered (in 1997), on the night before, the worst tragedy of his life befell him. His father died. Cruelty knows no welcome occasion.

And there is Nick. It will not come as any surprise to those who have been following my posts here over the last 7 years about how I regard him. There has never - never - been a better mark of the ball in the history of the game. That epitaph alone brings near to the top of the list. But he has been, and continues to be, so much more. If any parent wanted to raise a child into the world of Aussie Rules footy, there could be no better example to which they could point. That is the mark of an enduring champion.

And he has been our champion.

good post perfectionist..good post...i have fond memories of john mcintosh......a brilliant footballer whose career was cut short by injury.....

[Mr Magic]

I'm a firm believer in not being able to post an informed opinion on players I've never seen play live.
I also believe it is impossible to rate a mid against a KPP
I also believe that the 'greatest' is not necessarily the 'best'

The 'best' 5 Saints I've seen pay are
Doc
Plugger
Harvey and Roo equal 3rd
Stewart

The 'greatest' 5 Saints I've seen play are :-
Barker
Harvey and Roo equal 2nd
Baldock
Frawley

And for the record, the 'most skilled' 5 Saints I've seen play (in no particular order)
Baldock
Stewart
Lockett
Winmar
McIntosh

[dragit]

Good post MM,

Greatest, best, favourites, most skilled, legends… it's all too hard for me, like being asked to chose one of your children as a favourite… can't be done.

Lockett, Riewoldt, Hayes, Harvey in my top bracket. Probably can't go past plugger for sheer greatness…

Barks, Winmar & David Grant gave me great joy as a kid taking ridiculous hangers & are probably why I follow football.

Some of Dal Santo's tricks will stick with me forever too.

[spert]

I think Roo is our greatest captain rather than greatest player- he has dragged the team to two victories at the start of a season where we have been written off from the start, and in the process been BOG or close to, in both games. He has also turned games in our favour in recent years from sheer will to win the contest.
I am old enough to remember a little bit of Stewart and Baldock who's combined talent and courage was jaw-dropping, and were big game players who helped us to a premiership, so probably our two best ever players. Plugger was a freakish talent and if only he had a better team around him, we would have probably had another premiership.

[Superboot]

This is a really tough one.

Roo would be up there but for his kicking for goal. Had he kicked straight, as he did against GWS, throughout his career, he'd be in the top three.

He's always been guaranteed to take a captain's mark, but captain's goals are another matter altogether. Far, far too many wild misses from 30 metres on a slight angle.

Hope this isn't overly critical. He is and has been a great player but I wish someone had helped him beat the kicking yips years ago.

[stinger]

I think Roo is our greatest captain rather than greatest player- he has dragged the team to two victories at the start of a season where we have been written off from the start, and in the process been BOG or close to, in both games. He has also turned games in our favour in recent years from sheer will to win the contest.
I am old enough to remember a little bit of Stewart and Baldock who's combined talent and courage was jaw-dropping, and were big game players who helped us to a premiership, so probably our two best ever players. Plugger was a freakish talent and if only he had a better team around him, we would have probably had another premiership.

if he has stayed we would have won in 1997 and this thread wouldn't need debating.....

[ShanghaiSaint]

must be getting close to it,,,if he is not already there......probably won more games for us than any other player....milne, the doc and plugger included......certainly closing in on spud's record of most ever games as captain........much more durable than baldock........more loyal than plugger, stewart and ditterich.......banger was in a league of his own in respect of games played and no of possessions per game..loyalty on a par with roo....and pluggers best ever teammate.....according to plugger...nicky was well...nickly.....love him...i really do......but he played that one season with the doggies......and was never as consistent as roo.......

...roo for mine...if not now...by the end of his career....lucky aren't we????

very good post... very hard one... for me Banger Plugger and Elvis always come mind when i think of great staints players... Hamil is also in there.

but since 2000 when you think of St Kilda you think of Roo and Lenny they're hard set faces of the club and i think this generation would always recognize Roo. I think the guy has deserved a flag and a brownlow. hardest working footballer i have seen or can remember. i think that fact that he has neither and is recognized in the light he is really tells us just how good he is.

[The Redeemer]

Why is Harvey given his actual achievements and prolonged domination so understated?

No player has achieved what he has?

And none done it for as long?

I have him clear at #1

Put it this way, in a year Plugger kicked his highest goal tally 132
Harves won the B&F in that year

Mercurial ball handler, great user, creative, and at times freakish at ball winning (a skill in itself)

It is interesting that Harvey is somehow under-rated.

With that in mind, I would rather Riewoldt.

[dragit]

Put it this way, in a year Plugger kicked his highest goal tally 132
Harves won the B&F in that year

Gehrig kicked 100+ and couldn't crack the top 5 B&F… it means little.
Plenty of brownlow winners don't win their club B&F in the same year.

The 'greatest' all depends on your criteria… 'longest overall contribution' might not be how many rate their greatest, it could be derived from seeing someone kick 10+ goals many times in very weak sides.

[spert]

I think Roo is our greatest captain rather than greatest player- he has dragged the team to two victories at the start of a season where we have been written off from the start, and in the process been BOG or close to, in both games. He has also turned games in our favour in recent years from sheer will to win the contest.
I am old enough to remember a little bit of Stewart and Baldock who's combined talent and courage was jaw-dropping, and were big game players who helped us to a premiership, so probably our two best ever players. Plugger was a freakish talent and if only he had a better team around him, we would have probably had another premiership.

if he has stayed we would have won in 1997 and this thread wouldn't need debating.....

I think Jarman, and a lack of a good ruckman in our case might have had a hand in the result too

[Stephen Theodore]

On sheer talent and match-winning ability, it's Lockett for me. But Riewoldt is in my top 5 along with Stewart, Baldock, and Harvey

Agree with the five players you have mentioned.

As far as order goes, you could argue for weeks on it.

For me it's

Baldock
Plugger
Roo
Stewart
Harvey

[Toy Saint]

This is a really tough one.

Roo would be up there but for his kicking for goal. Had he kicked straight, as he did against GWS, throughout his career, he'd be in the top three.

He's always been guaranteed to take a captain's mark, but captain's goals are another matter altogether. Far, far too many wild misses from 30 metres on a slight angle.

Hope this isn't overly critical. He is and has been a great player but I wish someone had helped him beat the kicking yips years ago.

If Roo's kicking for goal was better, he may have been a dual premership captain and regarded an all-time legend in the media

[plugger66]

This is a really tough one.

Roo would be up there but for his kicking for goal. Had he kicked straight, as he did against GWS, throughout his career, he'd be in the top three.

He's always been guaranteed to take a captain's mark, but captain's goals are another matter altogether. Far, far too many wild misses from 30 metres on a slight angle.

Hope this isn't overly critical. He is and has been a great player but I wish someone had helped him beat the kicking yips years ago.

If Roo's kicking for goal was better, he may have been a dual premership captain and regarded an all-time legend in the media

I think you will find his kicking for goal average is nearly as good as any FF CHF who has kicked as many or more goals than him.

[SaintPav]

Am I right in saying Roos kicking only got iffy from 2010 and got progressively worse until last year.

Before that, it was VG. This year it has been outstanding.

[BigMart]

FFs don't win many B&Fs because someone has to kick the ball to them?

How often have we heard... The game will be won or lost in the midfield?

I would say plenty, but yes a high Brownlow voter does not automatically do well in B&Fs because you can be inconsistent and only play well in wins and do well in a Brownlow voting.... B&F requires high level consistency!


Say it again

Harvey is our most decorated player for a reason?!