Guys, let's be honest: Is Ross right for our team?

[thejiggingsaint]

Gday Folks! I reckon that it took GT three years to get the team into finals and that we should acknowledge the achievement
Ross has "inherited" a team that (seemingly) can be coached by "blind freddie" to a premiership
We need to give the guy a decnt chance to grow into the role. There are many instances of coaches taking a wee while to get the blend right.
The instances of Coaches winning flags in their 2nd/3rd term are not too many in number (I stand to be corrected of course)
Lets just concentrate on what WE can do to win the flag and i would respectfully suggest the first step is to focus on supporting the team!
(sermon endeth )

[cwrcyn]

The bottom line for me is that we have been excruciatingly boring to watch since the beginning of 2007.

I would rather watch us play attacking football and see what comes of it. Concerning yourself with how to shut down the opposition is all very fine, but it's better to the hunted than the hunter. Chasing arses and blocking spaces is boring and expends a lot of negative energy.

Take them one and play to your strengths, I say. There's nothing wrong with kicking long to a contest when you've got three giant forwards.


I just want to see some entertaining football, the kind that Callingwood and Geelong play. The sad thing is that we have the personnel to do it, but not the game plan.

[spert]

Lyon walked in on an over-rated team with over-rated players and now has to try and bang them into a premiership contender. He cant sack 'em all and start again, so he has to work with the cattle on the field. Some forum people are still living in 2004 it seems, but quite a few players haven't really gone the extra step since then. It's only early in the season and I'm not too worried generally, but some things that should have changed, haven't. We still have a slow midfield who don't kick enough goals and nothing has changed since GT time. In reality, new blood should be put in the midfield as soon as possible, and maybe guys like Hayes, Ball and DalSanto should be up on the forward line. I prefer a win no matter how ugly as opposed to pretty football that wins a few games but not a flag...that's what its all about.

[Dank25]

Well said!

[cwrcyn]

Sadly though, playing ugly won't win us a flag either.

You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. Assess your strengths and play to them. Meanwhile, recruit the right players. Tim Watson made the grave error on focussing far too much on what the other team was doing, and we became a nervous, reactive bunch.

Although I wasn't unhappy wiyh Ross Lyon's appointment, I have yet to see anything which indicates that we are closer to winning a premiership. I see a team playing with no cheek and no risk-taking.

Player by player, we match the top half a dozen teams (apart from Geelong). However, we look totally constipated in the way we play. Compare that with the way Collingwood play, for instance. I'd say they are closer to a flag right now.

[vacuous space]

I prefer a win no matter how ugly as opposed to pretty football that wins a few games but not a flag...that's what its all about.

How many flags have gone to ugly teams? The Lions weren't ugly. Neither were the Eagles. The Swans sometimes played ugly, but not always. Port didn't dominate by shutting games down. Geelong sure as hell isn't ugly. If we're going to win a flag, we need to score, and Rossy's Saints have had a lot of trouble doing that.

[meher baba]

People can rant and rave all they like: I'm still going to post about the GT/RL comparison and, in particular, the RL/l15 other current coaches comparison.

Fact 1: GT was sacked by a board who thought he "couldn't take us to the next level"

Fact 2: Many posters on this forum (including the ones who keep posting "GT is gone, get over it") have crowed on endlessly about "isn't it wonderful to have a rational coach at last, one with a footy brain, not an egomaniac, one who won't play Blake in the ruck (whoops!!), etc., etc.

Fact 3: There was endless whinging on this forum about our coaching and on-field performances in certain games over the 2005-06 period: the PF against the Swans in 2005, the Sirengate game, the loss to Geelong in Harves's record-breaking match, our loss to the Demons in the QF, etc., etc. However, I don't reckon any of these performances were as poorly played or ineptly coached as at least 5 I have witnessed under Lyon: the losses against the Roos and Swans and the drawn game against the Dogs and the close win against the Blues last year and the loss against the Dogs on Saturday.

Conclusion: If what we have seen over the past year and a bit, especially the 5 games I have mentioned, represent the "next level" that the Board was looking for, then we need to bring back the old level that GT reached.

As for it being unfair to call for Barney the Dinosaur's head after only 25 games: give him a go, etc.. GT had clearly turned things around by the start of the 2003 season. And he was starting with a team that had finished at the bottom for two seasons in a row.

Within a few weeks, Barney the Dinosaur will have had as many games as coach as GT. He started with a team that had made the finals the previous season and, frankly, was extremely unlucky to lose against the Demons. Has he turned things around in the way that GT did during 2001-03. Or are we going backwards away from the point we had reached in October 2006?

I know what I reckon...................

[spert]

Why do people keep looking backwards to 2004..like Lot's wife in biblical times, she looked back and turned to stone. Why not argue the fact that Jeans is not still coach, or Sheldon or Jezza -give the past the flick guys.

2008, Lyon is coach, we have two wins out of three and a whole season ahead of us. If we beat Geelong 6 goals to 5 on Saturday, then Lyon has to go as it will be ugly and not nice and pretty??. Get every win you can I think.

Don't forget GT got a few nice draft selections due to us being cellar dwellers, which RL doesn't have the luxury of.

[barks4eva]

Conclusion: If what we have seen over the past year and a bit, especially the 5 games I have mentioned, represent the "next level" that the Board was looking for, then we need to bring back the old level that GT reached.

AND you call Ross Lyon.........Barney the Dinosaur

As for it being unfair to call for Barney the Dinosaur's head after only 25 games: give him a go, etc.. GT had clearly turned things around by the start of the 2003 season. And he was starting with a team that had finished at the bottom for two seasons in a row.

Within a few weeks, Barney the Dinosaur will have had as many games as coach as GT.

Do the maths and you'll find the squares are rooted

Clearly things had turned around by the start of 2003

We started 2003 ( I'm reminded again of your dinosaur references )

Rnd 1 Lost to North by 26 points
Rnd 2 Won against Adelaide by 8 points
Rnd 3 Lost to West Coast by 70 points
Rnd 4 Lost to Richmond by 26 points

He started with a team that had made the finals the previous season and, frankly, was extremely unlucky to lose against the Demons. Has he turned things around in the way that GT did during 2001-03. Or are we going backwards away from the point we had reached in October 2006?
I know what I reckon...................

Yeah we know what you reckon

Does Ross Lyon read this forum?

If I had my way, he'd have plenty more time to do so.

Greg Westaway - if you read this - here is what I think you should do.

Give "Rossy" a chance to at least give a creditable performance against the Cats: eg, a close loss (a win is almost unimaginable ATM). If he manages this, then he needs to deliver a win - nothing less - against the Bombers.

If he fails in this, and we end up 2-3, I think that Westaway should seek out Matt Rendell wherever he is and beg him to come back and take over. Lyon and his gumby henchmen would be sacked as a job lot and Rendell allowed to bring in his own assistants.

FAIR DINKUM


AFTER ONE LOSS THIS SEASON and the GT clowns are at it already

[Apu]

To be fair to Ross, The players skill levels are nowhere near where they were at in 04/05. Too many times the ball comes in to the forward line either to high or at the feet of the marking player. And do i even need to mention accuracy at goal. I believe the players have a general lack of confidence within themselves. Hopefully given a few more games the cobwebs will start to dissappear

[rodgerfox]

Lyon walked in on an over-rated team with over-rated players

That won in excess of 14 games three years in a row, played in 2 prelims and 3 consecutive finals series'.

You left that bit out.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Why do people keep looking backwards to 2004..like Lot's wife in biblical times, she looked back and turned to stone. Why not argue the fact that Jeans is not still coach, or Sheldon or Jezza -give the past the flick guys.

2008, Lyon is coach, we have two wins out of three and a whole season ahead of us. If we beat Geelong 6 goals to 5 on Saturday, then Lyon has to go as it will be ugly and not nice and pretty??. Get every win you can I think.

Don't forget GT got a few nice draft selections due to us being cellar dwellers, which RL doesn't have the luxury of.

Can't speak for everyone, but at this point I'm doing my best to NOT look back to 200**6**...

With a horrible injury run, we made the 8 and got knocked out in round 1... but looked a lot more convincing during that season than at any time since.

Based on play since, those who call the list overrated are right... but while I retain hope of an improvement after R6 ala Sydney '05, and a dream of one like Geelong last year, I'm forced to the realisation that we don't have the team character of Sydney, and the Saints don't have the resemblance of their past success that the Cats retained through their coach...

It needn't be the extreme we're seeing, it doesn't have to be about lynching Lyon, about re-instating GT (as some would have us believe people are suggesting), or about keeping the faith.

it's about asking the question: shouldn't we be able to expect more than we're getting, and is Ross Lyon capable of delivering it?

[hAyES]

People can rant and rave all they like: I'm still going to post about the GT/RL comparison and, in particular, the RL/l15 other current coaches comparison.

Fact 1: GT was sacked by a board who thought he "couldn't take us to the next level"

Fact 2: Many posters on this forum (including the ones who keep posting "GT is gone, get over it") have crowed on endlessly about "isn't it wonderful to have a rational coach at last, one with a footy brain, not an egomaniac, one who won't play Blake in the ruck (whoops!!), etc., etc.

Fact 3: There was endless whinging on this forum about our coaching and on-field performances in certain games over the 2005-06 period: the PF against the Swans in 2005, the Sirengate game, the loss to Geelong in Harves's record-breaking match, our loss to the Demons in the QF, etc., etc. However, I don't reckon any of these performances were as poorly played or ineptly coached as at least 5 I have witnessed under Lyon: the losses against the Roos and Swans and the drawn game against the Dogs and the close win against the Blues last year and the loss against the Dogs on Saturday.

Conclusion: If what we have seen over the past year and a bit, especially the 5 games I have mentioned, represent the "next level" that the Board was looking for, then we need to bring back the old level that GT reached.

As for it being unfair to call for Barney the Dinosaur's head after only 25 games: give him a go, etc.. GT had clearly turned things around by the start of the 2003 season. And he was starting with a team that had finished at the bottom for two seasons in a row.

Within a few weeks, Barney the Dinosaur will have had as many games as coach as GT. He started with a team that had made the finals the previous season and, frankly, was extremely unlucky to lose against the Demons. Has he turned things around in the way that GT did during 2001-03. Or are we going backwards away from the point we had reached in October 2006?

I know what I reckon...................

Completely agree with every word you said.

On the weekend, Ross saw a 6 goal first quarter lead and chose not to try and extend it, but lock it up. Roo, Kosi and Gehrig dominated that quarter, but I think I can count the times where I saw all 3 of them in the forward line after quarter time. Gehrig in the backline is the biggest waste of a player I have ever seen, and it needs to stop.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Completely agree with every word you said.

On the weekend, Ross saw a 6 goal first quarter lead and chose not to try and extend it, but lock it up. Roo, Kosi and Gehrig dominated that quarter, but I think I can count the times where I saw all 3 of them in the forward line after quarter time. Gehrig in the backline is the biggest waste of a player I have ever seen, and it needs to stop.

At the opening bounce for Q2, the Saints had 4 men in their backline including a loose man.

If that's an effort to lock things up, we've got bigger problems than I thought. If that's the doggies manning up on us, then our structure is more topheavy than even Sheehan believes.

Ross Lyon did not try and sit on the lead at any point in that game. If he had, we would have seen numbers back and loose often. We would have seen "chipilotto" instead of the bombing from halfway through the square to CHF where the Dogs were waiting for it.

[Mr X from the West]

Look, all the ramblings in this thread should not detract from the very good points Hayes raised in his/her original post.

Geelong HAVE shown that the way to win games of footy is to take risks, play on at all costs, kick to contests and to back your team mates. Our players are very good at these things. But the game plan doesn't seem to be set up to take advantage of it.

[Shaggy]

Why do people keep looking backwards to 2004..like Lot's wife in biblical times, she looked back and turned to stone. Why not argue the fact that Jeans is not still coach, or Sheldon or Jezza -give the past the flick guys.

2008, Lyon is coach, we have two wins out of three and a whole season ahead of us. If we beat Geelong 6 goals to 5 on Saturday, then Lyon has to go as it will be ugly and not nice and pretty??. Get every win you can I think.

Don't forget GT got a few nice draft selections due to us being cellar dwellers, which RL doesn't have the luxury of.

Perverse logic . GT got a few nice draft selections as kids. RL now has the same few nice draft selections as mature footballers in their prime .

Expectations are up now since the same kids took us to 2 preliminary finals when they were physically much less mature.

[saintsRrising]

Perverse logic . GT got a few nice draft selections as kids. RL now has the same few nice draft selections as mature footballers in their prime .

Expectations are up now since the same kids took us to 2 preliminary finals when they were physically much less mature.

?????? a few nice selections as kids???? some of those kids were not in fact kids......and the some was in fact a very large number.

Perverse logic again...Yes RL has secured some good mature recruits...

So occurred for GT as well..... GTrain, Hamill, Penny, Powell, Voss, Lawrence, Black (recruiting looked good while Waldron was there, but after he left it to GT it became McGough, Ackland, Brooks, Watts, Guerra, ...and Gram<well he had to get one right eventually>.)

But RL has not had the luxury of very low draft picks...nor of the Blues being caught cheating to boost it.

GT also had a superb core of existing players at the club..Loewe, Harvey, Burke, Aussie, Frankie, Thommo, Everitt, Hall, Max....

You add the established core to the senior pool added...and you have a good senior group...which when mixed with the low draft picks is why people started drooling over our list.

Gt had presented to him more than few nice selections.

Indeed EVERY position was covered...ample mids, a very good ruckmen, key defenders, plenty of mids, key forwards, a true medium forward in Hamill....all with a healthy dose of new young kids with low first and second young picks....

A dream list...the best I have ever seen in my years of supporting the Saints...

Then the decay.....players that GT could not manage left...wave after wave of injured players, year in year out....and topping up with a constant streams of duds once Waldron left. First and second round draft picks swapped for basically nil return.....

The list once so promising was in clear decline by the time that RL was appointed....and a long way short of where it should have been given the injection of playing talent in the early naughties.

People can rubbish RL's match day coaching all they want, but one thing that is clear is that he has improved the list from when he took over....a list that was far from perfect......and certainly a list not as good as it was when Waldron left.

[jill]

Have been in the company tonight of a one-eyed Cats fan - he reckons we'll do the Cats this weekend - hope he's right and therefore where will this thread go?
It's only 3 games in to a long season of footy! HAVE FAITH!

[Shaggy]

Perverse logic . GT got a few nice draft selections as kids. RL now has the same few nice draft selections as mature footballers in their prime .

Expectations are up now since the same kids took us to 2 preliminary finals when they were physically much less mature.

?????? a few nice selections as kids???? some of those kids were not in fact kids......and the some was in fact a very large number.

Perverse logic again...Yes RL has secured some good mature recruits...

So occurred for GT as well..... GTrain, Hamill, Penny, Powell, Voss, Lawrence, Black (recruiting looked good while Waldron was there, but after he left it to GT it became McGough, Ackland, Brooks, Watts, Guerra, ...and Gram<well he had to get one right eventually>.)

But RL has not had the luxury of very low draft picks...nor of the Blues being caught cheating to boost it.

GT also had a superb core of existing players at the club..Loewe, Harvey, Burke, Aussie, Frankie, Thommo, Everitt, Hall, Max....

You add the established core to the senior pool added...and you have a good senior group...which when mixed with the low draft picks is why people started drooling over our list.

Gt had presented to him more than few nice selections.

Indeed EVERY position was covered...ample mids, a very good ruckmen, key defenders, plenty of mids, key forwards, a true medium forward in Hamill....all with a healthy dose of new young kids with low first and second young picks....

A dream list...the best I have ever seen in my years of supporting the Saints...

Then the decay.....players that GT could not manage left...wave after wave of injured players, year in year out....and topping up with a constant streams of duds once Waldron left. First and second round draft picks swapped for basically nil return.....

The list once so promising was in clear decline by the time that RL was appointed....and a long way short of where it should have been given the injection of playing talent in the early naughties.

People can rubbish RL's match day coaching all they want, but one thing that is clear is that he has improved the list from when he took over....a list that was far from perfect......and certainly a list not as good as it was when Waldron left.

That’s why some of us believe you try to deceive SR .

Hall and Spider were traded to get the players in so why double count??

Of the mature players GT brought in only Hamill cost us an early number one draft choice.

I believe Spert however was referring to our very low draft picks over the past 6 years … ie we have recruited Kosi, Roo, Ball, BJ, X, Dal, Goose, Hamill, Raph, Brooks & Mini during GT's coaching stint and Armitage & McEvoy after with our very low picks over the past 6 years.

That’s my point of the perverse logic.

RL is obviously the major beneficiary. Its a nonsense for Spert to state that GT was blessed by the early drafts when RL gets the benefit of most of the low draft picks now entering their prime.

And that is why our expectations are much higher.

Would you prefer to be Ratten now or Carlton's coach later? I will take 4 years time when the low picks are more mature

[saintsRrising]

Would you prefer to be Ratten now or Carlton's coach later? I will take 4 years time when the low picks are more mature

That is an interesting question.....

I certainly would not mind getting the Hawks job right about now

Back on Ratten....and the Blues....

It depends on how their recruiting drafting etc go.

The Blues for a period were quite dreadful in this regard and IMO were making a bad situation worse, but now seemed to have sharpened their act up.

For example...the Blues picking up Sugar on a high priced extended


The Hawks by contrast have kept their eye on the ball and by and large have stuck to picking up youth, and in giving themselves morte picks through trading. Will Dew be the start of them altering tack, or was it just an aberation rather thana new trend?

[saintsRrising]

That’s why some of us believe you try to deceive SR .

Hall and Spider were traded to get the players in so why double count??

Of the mature players GT brought in only Hamill cost us an early number one draft choice.

I think you have missed my qualifier....

"once Waldron left. First and second round draft picks swapped for basically nil return..... "
1/ So Hamill was not what I was talking about:

2/ I said first and second round draft picks were traded post Waldon and we have received in effective return???? = very little.



One can choose to trade...or not.


Either way....what is achieved can be assessed.

IMO trading for players was dreadful post Waldon in terms of delivered benefits with our cost of aqusition far exceeding any realised return.

[spert]

And Rogerfox, yeah, they won games, got in some finals, but in the end that team won how many flags...still waiting. The premiership is what counts - that's what defines the club and establishes reputations, and until then its all just hope and promise and coulda-been talk.

[rodgerfox]

And Rogerfox, yeah, they won games, got in some finals, but in the end that team won how many flags...still waiting. The premiership is what counts - that's what defines the club and establishes reputations, and until then its all just hope and promise and coulda-been talk.

Of course it is.

It was for Williams, Roos and Thompson too when they'd lost prelims that they should have won.

Should we sack Lyon now cause we missed the 8? Should we sack him if we miss it this year?

It's that exact attitude of impatience that costs our club so many, many times.

[barks4eva]

?????? a few nice selections as kids???? some of those kids were not in fact kids......and the some was in fact a very large number.

Perverse logic again...Yes RL has secured some good mature recruits...

So occurred for GT as well..... GTrain, Hamill, Penny, Powell, Voss, Lawrence, Black (recruiting looked good while Waldron was there, but after he left it to GT it became McGough, Ackland, Brooks, Watts, Guerra, ...and Gram<well he had to get one right eventually>.)

But RL has not had the luxury of very low draft picks...nor of the Blues being caught cheating to boost it.

GT also had a superb core of existing players at the club..Loewe, Harvey, Burke, Aussie, Frankie, Thommo, Everitt, Hall, Max....

You add the established core to the senior pool added...and you have a good senior group...which when mixed with the low draft picks is why people started drooling over our list.

Gt had presented to him more than few nice selections.

Indeed EVERY position was covered...ample mids, a very good ruckmen, key defenders, plenty of mids, key forwards, a true medium forward in Hamill....all with a healthy dose of new young kids with low first and second young picks....

A dream list...the best I have ever seen in my years of supporting the Saints...

Then the decay.....players that GT could not manage left...wave after wave of injured players, year in year out....and topping up with a constant streams of duds once Waldron left. First and second round draft picks swapped for basically nil return.....

The list once so promising was in clear decline by the time that RL was appointed....and a long way short of where it should have been given the injection of playing talent in the early naughties.

People can rubbish RL's match day coaching all they want, but one thing that is clear is that he has improved the list from when he took over....a list that was far from perfect......and certainly a list not as good as it was when Waldron left.

How refreshing it is to have someone on here with a FAIR DINKUM clue.

The game has also changed in the last 5 years, where pace is now a pre-requisite for success, you could get away with not having a lot of leg speed, NOW, fact is you can't and the recruiting over 5 years was woeful.

Slow player after slow player was recruited and in the modern game where pace is pivotal, RL inherited one of the slowest paced teams in the AFL, with a pedestrian midfield as a result of the brontosaurus that ran our previous football department like a chook raffle.

Ross Lyon has done a wonderful job in starting this rebuild, but it will take time before these fruits ripen and no I'm not suggesting we all just sit around and twiddle our thumbs, waiting for this to happen.

Obviously you find a way, to go all the way, RIGHT NOW.

[NeXuss]

I don't think Ross is right for our team....my reasons are:-

When he took over last year he should have assesed the team and then implemented a gameplan the best suited us. Instead, he implemented this crap gameplan that Sydney used. Yes, it won Sydney a premiership but the game has changed and that gameplan suited Sydney because they had the right type of players for that specific gameplan.

St.kilda were one of the highest scoring teams in the AFL. The Sydney gameplan did not suit us. He should have persisted with the existing gameplan and tweaked it here and there. Instead he turned it on its head, and the results are there for everyone to see.

From one of the highest scoring teams to the equal lowest in the space of 12 months. I know I'm not allowed to mention the name of our previous coach, however, Butthead should not have been allowed to sack him. He did it for personal reasons and now in my opinion we are all suffering because of it.